REVIEW: Tom Casiello’s First Episode of Y&R

Picture it. Genoa City, Wisconsin. Monday, April 20, 2009. A foster child/custody storyline so boring, so polarizing, so utterly pointless, by comparison it makes Ryan Seacrest on the red carpet seem like edge-of-your-seat entertainment, is finally, mercifully climaxing on CBS Daytime’s The Young and the Restless

While I knew weeks ago that yesterday would be the day when Neil Winters (Kristoff St. John) and his wife Karen (Nia Peeples) would face off in court with Tyra (Eva Marcille) over the custodial fate of Sally Sing-A-Lot aka Ana. I also knew this episode would be important for another reason. It would be the first air show since officially rejoining the soap opera writing community for former Days of Our Lives scribe Tom Casiello, whose My Space blog became a soap fanboy/girl’s wet dream during the 2007-2008 Writers’ Strike. Talk about pressure. For his first show, Casiello would have to help breathe life into the only storyline stinker left on the soap opera since the Dream Team of Maria Arena Bell, Paul Rauch and Hogan Sheffer began masterfully restoring The Young and the Restless, following the destructive tenure of Lynn Marie Latham

Almost immediately after the Dream Team was assembled, the Abbotts and Newmans began to resemble the characters Y&R fans knew and loved from the classic 80’s and contemporary 90’s, while the Fisher-Baldwins—comprised of great actors, but show eaters during LML’s reign—were smartly scaled back, however, the once-wildly popular Winters family were marooned on the Isle of Storyline Contrivance, trapped in yet another dismal, stereotypical, "socially relevant" storyline. (Blogger’s Note: On behalf of all black folks who watch the eight soaps still on the air, we get it. Thank you for sympathizing with our plight— well, someone‘s plight, since my childhood was more akin to Noah Newman’s than Ana’s, but I digress.  Going forward we no longer need, nor want to be the social studies exercise portion of our favorite soaps. Just give the black folks good, old-fashioned, integrated, soapy, scheming, sexing, pot boiler storylines like everyone else. Thank you kindly.)

It has been a shame before the Soap Gods that for months the only storyline I have fast-forwarded through on The Young and the Restless was the one featuring people who look like me. Give me a storyline featuring snarky, sexy boy and girl baddies Billy (Billy Miller) and Chloe (Elizabeth Hendrickson) any day over a drippy, heavy-handed, faux morality tale showcasing bad actresses—sorry Eva, but we’ve treated you with kid gloves long enough, it’s time for you to put up, or pack up—and a fourth rate storyline. All of that slowly started to change yesterday.
By juxtapositioning the climax of Ana’s custody saga, with what looked like the beginning of baby Delia’s, The Young and Restless presented a powerful, compelling story of what it truly means to be a parent, and in the process gave St. John his best material since the death of his first wife Drucilla (Victoria Rowell), while finally providing his second wife, Karen (Nia Peeples) with Emmy-worthy material. Peeples exited the serial on a high note, as Karen ripped the ever-sanctimonious Neil to shreds for telling the judge that Sally, er Ana, belonged with Tyra. Finally, I have a modicum of hope that the storyline for Neil and his family will begin to be just as interesting as the rest of the show.

As with any episode, this one wasn’t without fault.The aforementioned Eva Marcille‘s attempts to emote were laughable, and the usually perceptive Daniel Goddard played the crucial scenes where Cane decided to give up the fight for Delia straight forward, not showing any turmoil or conflict for a character who has been fighting to the death for this child.

Are we really supposed to believe that after everything Chloe did to separate Cane and his "one true love", Lily (Christel Khalil), he would now give Chloe a big, old bear hug, while grinning like the Cheshire Cat from Alice in Wonderland? Don’t get me wrong, I am glad Cane is over his obsession with a child he now knows he didn’t father—especially if it gets him and Lily out of Billy and Chloe’s orbit— but there is no way he should have been making nice with someone who drugged him and passed a child off as his, let along hugging them.
Chloe wanting to hug Cane made sense, because that’s who Chloe is. She is so self-absorbed, she seriously thinks people should get over her behavior as soon as she does, but Cane should have pushed her away, instead of acting like a sailor picking up his best girl and spinning her around after returning from The Great War. This is why some fans, like myself, have huge problems with Cane and Lily’s saccharine-sweet love story. In an attempt to paint Cane as some Harlequin Novel hero for Lily, the actor oversells us on Cane’s "good guy" earnestness, basically stripping away any semblance of the edge or depth Cane came to Genoa City with. Memo to Goddard: Soap Opera romantic leads are allowed to retain their nads.
Luckily Cane and Tyra’s misses weren’t enough to spoil an hour of television that was largely a hit. The episode’s other highlights, featuring Abbott siblings Jack (Peter Bergman) and Ashley (Eileen Davidson) and one of their wicked stepmonsters, Jill (Jess Walton), squaring off, and later Jacko baiting Adam (Chris Engen) were delicious, classic soap. I literally, got down off the couch to sit right in front of the TV on the floor, in anticipation of Jill flooring the Abbotts with the news that Victor (Eric Braeden) was behind their ousting at Jabot. Darn that Ashley and her cramps!

Line of the Episode from Jill: What’s the matter Ashley, is Satan’s Spawn causing you indigestion? 

Hilarious. Good job Y&R writing team, and welcome back Mr. C. 


149 Responses

  1. Profile photo of Smitty

    Jamey thanks for writing this. I don’t know much about Tom Cassiello, but if I have to judge him off of this episode then I say I am looking forward to his writing for Y&R. The episode was great!!!

    I pointed out to Luke that Jill’s line should have been the quote of the day! I was LMAO when she said that one.

    As a black person, I never thought I would see the day that Y&R’s Winters/Barber storylines would be the biggest snoozefest of the show. I have to say since Victoria Rowell left (and I know people are probably tired of hearing this but it’s true) the story for the Winters family have been FF material. LML messed up the Winters family by writing Dru to go crazy over Neil and Carmen. I thought that was so unlike the character of Dru and I don’t blame VR for leaving because of that mess. LML began the destruction of the Winter’s family. My only hope for MAB and company is to get this Winter’s family storyline cleaned up. Yesterday’s episode was a step in the right direction. No one cared about who got custody of Ana. Now let’s get Neil mixed back in with Newman Enterprises. Even though I am not the biggest fan of Tyra let’s mix her up with the other young adults on the set. Her and Neil just don’t do it for me. I would love for Devon to have an onscreen romance with Chloe, Colleen or possibly bring Roxanne on full time. I mean the Winter’s family has so much potential. They need to figure out something to do with Olivia. I am happy that she is back but if they are only going to use her as a person that Ashley and Lily confide in then they were better off leaving her gone. I could go on and on but I do have faith that MAB and Co. will get this cleaned up.

    Great first show Tom C.!!!

  2. Profile photo of fewfew50

    Chloe wanting to hug Cane made sense, because that’s who Chloe is. She is so self-absorbed, she seriously thinks people should get over her behavior as soon as she does, but Cane should have pushed her away, instead of acting like a sailor picking up his best girl and spinning her around after returning from The Great War. This is why some fans, like myself, have huge problems with Cane and Lily’s saccharine-sweet love story. In an attempt to paint Cane as some Harlequin Novel hero for Lily, the actor oversells us on Cane’s “good guy” earnestness, basically stripping away any semblance of the edge or depth Cane came to Genoa City with. Memo to Goddard: Soap Opera romantic leads are allowed to retain their nads.

    That is what has been wrong with the whole STUPIDEST STORY LINE IN ALL OF SOAPDOM. Your glowing praise of Chloe. All the characters involved in this stinker was dummied down made to do things that no self-respecting human being will do in real life. That is the main reason i find it hard to even believe anything Chloe says or does or what other say about her “great performances.” I see a lot of people love snark(she can deliver it very well but after that she loses me. The scene in the chapel i found myself laughing and waiting for the candles to ignite and burn her to hell(but i digress). Anyway i do agree with you on the hug-hug-kiss-kiss fest inside the courtroom with Cane and Chloe, it was not either actors finest hour. I could not believe the sincerity of Chloe being happy that the baby drama was over nor did i want Cane to be so forgiving(somebody needs to pay for my angst the last 8 months and this is all i get?) It is as if what Chloe did is good and acceptable in soiciety and just because she is the maid’s daughter she gets a free pass.But as it has been since she stepped into GC,as long as EH/CHLOE comes out on top all is well with your soap world-not mine.
    The other problem i have is all the bashing of LML. THis stinker was not under LML if it was so bad(and it was bad) why did MAB keep adding fuel to the flame. She was the boss she could have stopped it and if MAB is so great why did we not get a better ending to that stinker.TO me MAB will go down in soap history for THE STUPIDEST STORY LINE IN ALL OF SOAPDOM.

  3. Profile photo of Jorpa

    I read about it last week, but I had forgotten about TC writing this episode. All the way through it, I kept thinking this eppy was better than usual. Now I know why!

    Thank you Tom, and keep up the good work!

  4. Profile photo of timepass

    Ah, Jamey is back, all is right with the world again!

    I agree with you on all points. I loved the Jill/Ashley/Jack dialogue it was smart and witty.

    Chloe/Cane meeting in the courtroom was like watching space alien; the “I won the lotto” grinning to the embrace and turning around, you really felt like Cane wan the lotto!

    After that, with the four of them around the stroller, I was waiting for them to start signing cumbaya. The end!

    I am glad you called DG on it because frankly, lately his choices are awful, it was so sweet with Lily, no wonder she start applauding like a little girl and giggling, it was awkward too!

    Tyra and Ana were their usual awful!

    Nia was wonderful and will be sorely miss! What ca I say me thing Y&R cannot have a very good back actress on site, they let them go!

    BTW, completely destroyed Neil as a character, I will never like him again! He is death to me, ok wrong soap!

    It makes one wonder who is responsible for what on a soap. For example, they told Karen that Tyra could NOT adopt Ana because she forge Yolanda signature, that is why the Winters started the adoption proceedings and suddenly, poof it is ok!?! Make me mad!

  5. Profile photo of timepass

    I must agree with fewfew50 on Chloe.

    Loved EH on IB, but does not like her at all on Y&R, she seems bore and wooden and she is boring.

    She barely emote anyhting! what is up with that? JMO!

  6. Profile photo of soapjunkie88

    Who ever came up with the idea that Chloe hugs Cane and they both smiling all over each other had too much to drink. This scene felt just so unbelievable wrong you can’t even find words for this.

    As for the rest of the episode, it was a pretty well written one. Just don’t know if it’s the best idea to write Adam in a corner again. The viewers and fans were already angry with this fake dairy thing and thought it was too much and ruined Adam’s character. Hopefully they learned from that response…

  7. Profile photo of monamis

    Tom’s first episode, was a welcome change and I watched the whole episode for the first time in a long time. He put his foot in it.

    I was surprised at DG’s performance too. There was no reason to lift that elf off the floor after that hug. He could have done the same pat on the head he did when he thought Kay died. He probably didn’t know how to react to Chloe not being snarky 0:)

    If Jill had the line of the day, Karen certainly stole the day and the question left on my mind is why the hell are they letting her go? Let her be a much needed serial killer or something. That woman did her swan song in the spirit of Effie! Damn, if you gotta leave… that’s the way to do it! Brava!

  8. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    Who ever came up with the idea that Chloe hugs Cane and they both smiling all over each other had too much to drink. This scene felt just so unbelievable wrong you can’t even find words for this.

    Those are acting choices. The scripts leave the actors lee way on things like that. Even if a hug is scripted, it is up to the actor to play the emotion, and Daniel played it off  IMO. Again, I totally buy Chloe acting this way. It is part of her character that she never seems to think what she does is a big deal, which is of course insane, but that’s always how the character has been, and Elizabeth has kept that throughline. Cane, after doggedly, and obsessively seeking to take this child, being all smiles when he decides to give her up was a miss. He should have been visibly torn, yet reserved to do what he felt was best, but not happy.  

  9. Profile photo of monamis

    “Talk about pressure. For his first show, Casiello would have to help breathe life into the only storyline stinker left on the soap opera since the Dream Team of Maria Arena Bell, Paul Rauch and Hogan Sheffer began masterfully restoring The Young and the Restless, following the destructive tenure of Lynn Marie Latham. ”

    I didn’t know it took a year and a half to clean up after a commercially and critically acclaimed writer. I could swear I read a column on this site that said MAB’s “dream team” had full ownership of story arcs by August 2008.

    Oh Well, I guess its a sliding scale of excellence for someone who follows ratings and households engaged, as opposed to a small circle of naysayers.

  10. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    Monamis, we were obviously watching different shows. LML, your critcally-acclaimed writer, killed off John Abbott, fired Jerry Douglas and Eileen Davidson, transformed Dru from a diva into a psycho, before tossing her off a cliff. Defanged Victor Newman, created the most asinine, ridiculous return for the iconic character of Sheila Carter ever, including the time she turned up on B&B as a terrorist dictator. She made Judith Chapman the star of the show five days a week. Stripped the show of all glamour and posh, due to her own tree-hugging sentiments, i.e no water bottles, no furs, no diamonds, no freaking fire places, etc. Gave us one dreadful story after another, the reliquary, Clearasil Springs, Victor’s epilepsy, Devon’s meningitis, Nikki the Stripper’s run for Senate, etc. etc. Yet you think only a "small group" are happy with MAB and Co? I think it’s the other way around. LML has five fans, and they love her simply because of Cane and Lily.

  11. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    LML desecrated this show. She dismantled the Abbotts, made Victor a joke and Dru a cartoon. Y&R is now creatively headed back in the right direction. It took time to clean up after that egotistical hack who seized control of both the production AND the writer’s room.

  12. Profile photo of SoapSnob

    I think Cane and Chloe’s hug has more to do with the growth of both characters. Yes, it was jarring to see him pick her up during the hug and smile heartily while doing so, but the dialogue before that scene really displayed some – probably very microscopic – growth in Chloe. To paraphrase, Chloe said something along the lines of “Marrying you (Cane) made me a Chancellor. Marrying Billy made me an Abbott. But having Delia made me a Mother.” Of course, Chloe is a self-absorbed little vixen who has used Delia as a means to an end. But, she is the child’s mother and though, very unfortunately, we did not get to see the beats play out on screen enough, Chloe loves Delia. (Which could prove to be a really good progression for this character – Chloe now has the name, wealth and position that eluded her when she was growing up, so she will do whatever it takes to ensure that she keeps it and that Delia has the “proper” upbringing that Chloe did not.) And Cane, for all his huffing and puffing, can see that Chloe loves Delia. Now, I would have been more disturbed if he had given Billy a handshake and a hug because I think that is where his true issues with parenting of Delia lies – he does not think Billy is or will be a good father to Delia. And, of course, he will be proven correct.

  13. Profile photo of Camp is not a sustainable model
    Camp is not a sustainable model

    Okay it was good accept for the Eva thing to me. As an Actor myself i know this woman has the talent of a dog. Wait-a-minute Harold the dog on All My Children was a talented Dogtor. But I did create a whole dam video to talk about eva’s issues. And boy did i break it it. Cause it ain’t right what they doing to us…it ain’t right.

    But i’ll have to say this for Nia:

    Miss Nia:
    “I had to act all my life…I had to act with my daddy’s. I had to act with my uncle’s. Lord child I had to act with the family wo’mens’. I love Eva god knows I do. But i’ll kill her dead if I have share a scene with her again! Now you want a dead model and all Miss Maria, you keep her on contract like you do.

    Maria: Mary Jane be back soon and new Mac will be here forever.

    Miss Nia: You better bring Victoria Rowell back and think about recast later !

    My final word on Eva’s acting:

  14. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    LML may not have given us Tyra and Ana, but her stint left the Winters family so mortally wounded, literally and figuratively, TPTB seemed at a loss as to what to do with them. So they concentrated first on getting the rest of the show right. It’s been a long process, but finally there is something to be happy about in terms of this family’s storyline.

  15. Profile photo of Smitty

    Monamis, we were obviously watching different shows. LML, your critcally-acclaimed writer, killed off John Abbott, fired Jerry Douglas and Eileen Davidson, transformed Dru from a diva into a psycho, before tossing her off a cliff. Defanged Victor Newman, created the most asinine, ridiculous return for the iconic character of Sheila Carter ever, including the time she turned up on B&B as a terrorist dictator. She made Judith Chapman the star of the show five days a week. Stripped the show of all glamour and posh, due to her own tree-hugging sentiments, i.e no water bottles, no furs, no diamonds, no freaking fire places, etc. Gave us one dreadful story after another, the reliquary, Clearasil Springs, Victor’s epilepsy, Devon’s meningitis, Nikki the Stripper’s run for Senate, etc. etc. Yet you think only a “small group” are happy with MAB and Co? I think it’s the other way around. LML has five fans, and they love her simply because of Cane and Lily.


    Jamey you are right. For long time viewers LML’s reign on Y&R was awful!!! She ruined the show. Everyything you listed was spot on! The fact that Judith Chapman was made the star of the show says it all. One of the reasons everyone has loved Y&R is for it’s focusing on the Vets and Chewy Chapman will NEVER be a reason for me to tune into Y&R! Thankfully MAB and Co. has reduced her role on the show! She is now being written how she should have been!

  16. Profile photo of McD720

    Thanks Jamey for stating all my thoughts on LML’s disgusting tenure so I don’t have to…You are totally inside my head on all of it. I agree with everything you said in response to monamis wholeheartedly.

    But much more importantly – CONGRATULATIONS TO TOM! The episode was beautifully done and the dialogue hit all the right notes for me. My favorite being the delicious dialogue between Ashley, Jack and Jill.

    I agree with the idea of the interesting acting choice of DG in the hug… it was a little surprising but I think it offered the two characters good closure at this point in the story. I think for a while we will see Cane/Lily out of Billy/Chloe’s orbit which I think is a good thing but eventually things will get stirred up again.

    Tom! You really did the impossible yesterday. You made me feel a connection to the current Winters storyline. I so loved the Winters family in their heyday and I didn’t like the disconnect I felt with them.

    Welcome back to the land of soaps Tom and looking forward to your future episodes!

  17. Profile photo of monamis

    But why weren’t people watching. At what point does MAB’s team take accountability? Let’s call LML on her BS, but let’s also call MAB on it.

    Will Obama be able to blame Bush 1.5 years after he’s left office?

    Come on Jamey. The ratings speak for themselves. The problem is you all attribute incorrectly things to LML, that MAB has done, and vice versa. When you have the play by play correct, I will absolutely acknowledge fault, just as I have with DG, who is a favorite of mine. As much as I used to love Cane and Lily, I don’t love them like I did.

    Let’s compare:

    1) LML’s writing of Mike and Kevin’s heart wrenching family stand vs. MAB’s chipmunk fiasco? The actors themselves have praised her for this.

    2) LML’s Daniel Addiciton storyline that gave us that amazing emmy worthy MG scene with CLB vs. this BS with Amber and the peanut gallery.

    3) LML’s steamy Phick affair, vs. MAB’s crappy drawn out Phick/Shick triangle?

    LML didn’t know history…she did know drama and dialogue. She had a few misses, but MAB has had plenty you willingly overlook, so let’s give her credit correctly for what she did right, same with MAB.

    I am no friend of LML, and I certainly get nothing for supporting her. But I think if we are going to call her out on her isht, let it be for the things that really stunk, and not blame her for things she didn’t do. The staff at DC have yet to prove that they know where LML’s “reign of terror” ended, and MAB’s glorious renaissance has begun. Once I see proof of this, I will absolutely acknowledge what works and what doesn’t.

    And just to recap:

    LML as head writer 2/16/06-12/24/07. She averaged 5,545,354 viewers and a 4.2 rating per episode.

    MAB+Josh G as co-head writers 12/26/07-4/21/08. They averaged 5,535,941 viewers and a 4.0 rating per episode.

    MAB as sole head writer 4/22/08 to present. She averages, 5,067,208 viewers and a 3.7 rating per episode.

    I know that I don’t always agree with the majority, which is why I defer to what the viewers like. And they were more engaged during LML’s reign of terror vs. MAB’s dream team years.

  18. Profile photo of goyankees

    Sigh. Earlier I rejoiced on Cane and Chloe acting like adults with the whole baby saga, then I read this re-cap and most of these comments and maybe I was wrong. So I thought about it, and like Miss California(yikers!!)I’m going to stand behind what I said. Cane has been a giant boob since he found out that baby was not his, so I for one am just happy he came to his senses and can move on like a man. I don’t like being annoyed with Cane, so I’m relieved. Besides, this can put the Billy/Chloe drama now fully on the WOODEN Mac. (please,please,please, can she move her face when she talks?)
    Last year Chloe would have had Mac for breakfast, morning snack and lunch and spit her out. Where’s that Chloe!!? She steamrolled over Lily last year to get what she wants, she can dig deep and do it again.
    Finally, so happy that most comments applaud Karen/Nia and do the opposite for Tyra/Eva. My boyfriend had stopped over to raid my fridge during the breakup scene. He does not watch Y&R but even HE was blown away by Karen’s rage infested breakup. Sure, he laughed when she clocked Neil – -didn’t we all?!! But when he asked for the backstory, I just couldn’t. Then I’d have to start off with “Well, that’s Neil, and he USED to be a great guy with the COOLEST wife ever…..”

  19. Profile photo of McD720

    LML’s Daniel Addiciton storyline that gave us that amazing emmy worthy MG scene with CLB vs. this BS with Amber and the peanut gallery


    One decent scene in two years does not a good writer make.

    And Graz and Adrienne are wonderful together – it is far from BS.

  20. Profile photo of monamis

    Again, when MAB get’s households to tune in the way LML did, I will bow to her. I liked last week, more than I have the past year.

    I didn’t like everything I saw under LML, and I like even less under MAB. I try to be honest about it, but yes I have my favorites.

    I think In Treatment is one of the best shows on tv, but I’m not gonna say it gets better ratings than American Idol, just because I like it better. Let’s start with facts, and separate them from our opinions.

  21. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    Monamis, you say we never "call MAB" on her stuff. This seems to be a fairly repetitive, yet erroneous critique. I have been calling her out on fixing everything else, but the black storyline for months. But, that one gripe does not a hack make. A hack is made when one re-writes the histoy of Brad the pool boy-turned-gigolo-turned-corporate exec, to make him a Nazi Slayer. A hack is made when the most powerful male character in daytime is turned into a simpering buffoon, complete with a puppy. A hack is made when a brilliant, beautiful, wildly popular actress like Eilleen Davidson is fired because the idiot writer doesn’t like the actress. A hack is made when a family like the Abbotts are destroyed to pimp the Fishers and the Baldwins. Honestly, I don’t care that MAB’s numbers aren’t as strong yet. Give her time. DAYS numbers are steady, and trust me, that isn’t because of quality. I would rather have a My So-Called Life, or Once and Again—both critically acclaimed shows that weren’t so high in the ratings— on daytime than the Jerry Springer of soaps, which is what LML was doing. She didn’t even know how to wrap up her own idiotic story threads. Ji Minh anyone? MAB is restoring this show to its glory, by reaching into the history vaults and creating new story from the show’s rich past, which is what good soap opera has always been. Some say she is "dusting off Bill Bell’s old scripts" which is untrue, she is mining history and not marching ahead in an egotistical manner trying to put some brash, new stamp on a decade’s old show. Do you think LML was write to strip the most glamorous soap in television of it’s identity? I don’t.

  22. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    Daniel’s porn addiction was a thrown together mess. Christian and Michael are pros, they could sell ice cream to a diabetic. That story was ridiculous. All 20 year old boys are porn addicts. Especially ones with naggy, harpy teen brides.

  23. Profile photo of Nathang1983

    I agree that Maria Arena Bell’s reign has been waaaaaaaay better than LML, but what is with the talking Chipmunk scene today? It’s almost like she’s channeling James Reilly. That’s the thing with headwriters like her and Reilly, God rest his soul: they seem to be good at creating great storylines, but then they jump into these scenes that you’d think had been written by a crackhead. I also was puzzled by Jill’s little sililoquoy yesterday. That’s classic James Reilly!

  24. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    I hate the chipmunk business. I have said so on the podcast several times. It is dumb, dumb, dumb, but spoilers say it won’t last long. Unlike, say Clearasil Springs or Brad the Nazi Slayer. Also, re: the ratings, the Writer’s Strike dealt a blow to ALL of daytime. I am convinced all the buzz around Dee Hall’s exit is the only thing that has DAYS over it’s numbers year to date. As I predicted, people would actually tune in to see the trainwreck. What I didn’t bank on, was people actually continuing to watch.

  25. Profile photo of Jillian Bowe
    Jillian Bowe

    Why are people forgetting that LML is the reason why the character of Brad Carlton was wrote into a corner? That came from Peter Bergman’s mouth at a fan event. Why do people think that we do NOT call MAB and co on their shit? I along with Jamey and the rest of DC call her out on the lack of storyline for The Winters family. I always call her out on not having Jack worshiping other people’s kids instead of him having his own kids to praise. The reason why MAB is a hack to some is due to the fact that Lane fans do not have their fav duo on front and center. This is an ensamble show not GH where they have the same characters on all the time.

  26. Profile photo of monamis

    LMAO Jamey! You are a terribly relevant voice in this genre, and I have given you a lot of praise on and off this website, but again, I ask you? Why do you think your opinion of soaps is more important than the 400,000 soap-buying fans who don’t watch Y&R anymore since MAB took over as sole head writer?

    You can’t debate opinion with facts, which is why I don’t try to convince you that Chloe doesn’t have sexual chemistry with Billy (even if they have great acting scenes together) and why I don’t try to convince you that Lane is interesting when you don’t agree. Those are my opinions.

    What I will put to you over and over again, is that it is not fair, when fans of a genre we both love, overwhelmingly prefer the soap under one writer vs. another, and this can be proved, that you keep pushing your opinion as truth, when it can be easily disproved?

    I Love the Wire, Weeds, Pushing Daisies, True Blood and In Treatment. I readily acknowledge that they don’t make the ratings of American Idol or Dancing with the stars, which I’m not as crazy about, but acknowledge as popular.

    To me that is the difference and why I keep pushing the bias issue with you. You can’t admit that MAB has lower ratings than LML, even though it is as much the truth as the fact that soaps are declining in ratings right now.

    You can bring up every one of LML’s wacky ideas and it still won’t change the fact that she had better ratings. I put no stock in emmy’s since Trevor St. John wasn’t even pre-nominated for his death chamber scene, but LML did win one.

  27. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    Don’t get me wrong, DAYS is better than it’s been in awhile, and it’s fans are historically much more forgiving, but I think the international attention paid to Deidre Hall’s firing caused people to actually tune back in, shocked to hear the news, and wanting to see what was up on a show they once watched. That’s just my theory. It’s kind of like when I listen to the Pine Valley Podcast. I can be boycotting AMC, but the PVP is so funny, it makes me want to watch the show again, so I can be in on the joke when they talk about how awful it is.

  28. Profile photo of McD720

    Jamey – quit beating me. I was all prepared to defend Maria but you did it better than I could.

    The argument about ratings is so weak. Across the board all ratings are down. Y&R appears to lately be the only soap to see a steady gain in viewership and it will still continue to go back up. If great ratings equals automatic quality television then I guess I don’t know good quality in writing. I agree Jamey I would take past low rated shows like Party of Five or Arrested Development over badly written ratings grabbers anyday.

    I have watched this show since I was wee one plopped in front of the TV by my babysitter and the ONLY time I completely tuned the show out was during LML’s tenure. My show that I grew up was made unrecognizable by her terrible writing. Watching her decimate my favorite daytime family (The Abbotts) was what did it but thankfully Maria has restored them to their glory and put them back where they belong. They are back in GC, supporting each other and in charge of Jabot. All stories are being written these days with care and have believable dialogue to match the dramatic and organic drama. Maria and Co. are in no way perfect but this is the REAL Y&R. LML’s tenure only produced an empty shell of Y&R.

  29. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    What I will put to you over and over again, is that it is not fair, when fans of a genre we both love, overwhelmingly prefer the soap under one writer vs. another, and this can be proved, that you keep pushing your opinion as truth, when it can be easily disproved?

    The fact is, we’ve had a Writer’s Strike and election and all-consuming recession. Those are the factors that have all soap viewers tuning out. It certainly isn’t because the majority preferred LML. I respect all opinions, but I have to say this is LAUGHABLE. She almost KILLED this show. She went through like a wrecking ball. So she managed to pull off a few popular couples, what soap writer couldn’t? Even Dena Higley can do that, but the oh-so-imnportant and essential to the fabric of Bill Bell’s 37 year old soap opera coupling known as "Lane" do not make up for this woman writing off Victoria Rowell, firing Eileen Davidson and Jerry Douglas, making Jess Walton a day player and basically handing the show over to Judith Chapman.

  30. Profile photo of Jillian Bowe
    Jillian Bowe

    I must have missed that Jamey said his voice was the one fans should listen to… Soap ratings in general are low so that argument of MAB lowering the ratings is weak at best. LML was the reason that we got the Gloria show all day everyday and the reasons why NONE of the Abbotts were at Jabot. Again LML

  31. Profile photo of monamis

    Monamis, Jerry Springer for a time had better ratings than Oprah. Quality, over time, always rises to the top.

    Jamey, it’s hard to hit a moving target. Your column last week said LML precipitated a free-fall in the ratings by featuring Lane and Judith Chapamn.

    Now you say the ratings don’t matter. Which is it? How are we evaluating when soaps are on the right path? Also, you talk about the writers strike which lasted from 11/5-2/12. If this precipitated the decline in ratings, than why do you blame featuring Lane for this?

    I have no problem admitting a mistake, but this website has used ratings as a key indicator of success and a sign that MAB is doing well for a while. If you are walking away from this, as an insider, please tell us what you are using, so we don’t make this mistake again.

  32. Profile photo of Chrystie-Delancey

    I enjoyed yesterday’s episode, but Y&R has been a breath of fresh air since I returned to it full-time after dumping GH. GH just got so boring and as much as I love Sarah Brown, her claims that she and Maurice are so organic with their acting are not accurate. I don’t know how anyone can be organic when you are playing Carly but with a different name.

    That being said, I have loved Y&R. I really enjoy watching Billy. I really enjoyed Cane when he was with Amber, but Lilly does nothing for him. When he was with Amber, he was fun and sexy. Now I don’t even notice him.

    Girls like to see a little bad boy in a guy and that is where Billy gets all the attention. I admit I also preferred Elizabeth Hendrickson on AMC. Chloe reminds me of Nina, but I am willing to stay with this story, especially since the addition of Mac will be good.

  33. Profile photo of Smitty

    monamis I am sorry but I think you are definitely in the minority when it comes to LML over MAB! I was about to go to bat for MAB and Co. but Jamey has taken good care of it.

    Great point Jamey with Springer’s Ratings vs. Oprah’s for a brief time.

    LML made me tune out from Y&R. The show was unrecognizable. Turning Jack into a moustache twirling villain while Gloria ran amuck on our screens for 5 days a week. My two biggest problems with LML was what she did with the Abbotts and Dru.

  34. Profile photo of KingTV

    WAIT A MINUTE! Y&R is a far superior show now then it ever was under that illiterate, historically ignorant, show destroyer, LML and writing team. She showed no respect for the rules of soap opera, no once umbrella story to connect the characters (that awful anti-climactic building collapse story that resulted in absolutely nothing), killed the patriarch of a major family was a mistake that cannot be repaired and trying to put her own individual statement on the show by turning it into the plights of Gloria Fisher. LML may have created Lily and Cane, but if you ask me, they are the most vanilla, boring, unromantic couple possibly in all of daytime. I hope they get married and move to Australia. There is no deep connection or psychological motivations behind either of their emotions or relationship. I do not exactly know which writing team created what and when but I believe that the Phick affair began right before LML took over and she at least had the smarts to know that they were a hot item. I am also no expert on ratings, but I do know that all of the soaps are posting their lowest ratings in history as of late and Y&R is not immune to the realities of today’s television industry and the country’s viewing habits. Y&R has hit a 4.0 more then a few times this year and that is far above and beyond any of the other shows while GH is experiencing it’s worst low ratings in that classic show’s history. So, generally, Y&R’s ratings have gone up while most other shows have gone down. OLTL, the 2nd best soap on air right now is not doing as well but I feel that is more of an ABC promo/marketing problem then a writing issue. Great writing will be rewarded once it catches on. In fact, I would even go as far as to say that some Y&R fans who may have stopped watching during LML’s stay have returned since word spread at how much the show has changed and become the classy, complex show focusing on the core families and characters that we have all loved for years. LML did not respect the vets and that is the major difference between Y&R and the other soaps.

    BUT, this comment was meant to be about Tom C’s wonderful, insightful first epsiode for the show. It had great snarky dialogue, meaningful interactions, a single theme of parenthood and what it means to be a biological parent or not and FINALLY, a riveting, dramatic, real batch of scenes involving Neil, Karen, Tyra and the rest of the Winters clan. What took so long to create conflict, emotion and human fraility to be explored with this story? Did it really take Tom C. to come along and write some intriguing dialogue for the actors to chew on? I guess so because he did a brilliant job writing those scenes and taking this s/l to the level that it should have been at the entire time. We could have seen the evolution of Karen figuring out that Neil really did not love her and that adopting Ana was more of a test of his loyalty then it was a true desire to take her away from Tyra and we could have seen him struggle more with actually finding it in his heart to love another woman who is not Dru and grow from it or come to fully realize that he is not ready or that Karen was not the one. Tom C. managed to convey all of that in just those few ending scenes with Nia Peebles knocking it out of the park as the woman scorned. Her physical assault of Neil was jolting and all of that suppressed anger and heartache erupted. The rest of the show was even better. Jack, Ashley and Jill’s interaction, Jill drinking her blues away and Jack’s mean, torturing insults to Adam. I found the Cane/Chloe solution to be satisfactory and am glad that Cane came to his senses. Yes, Chloe tricked him and lied about the baby but she has matured a lot since Delia’s birth and it becomes more and more evident each show. I do not think their hug was forced or wrong of Cane. I think the 2 of them have come to a place in their lives where fighting and putting the baby in the middle of their hurt feelings was not good for her. It was a hug in earnest and hopefull, an evolution of the relationships. Chloe has a lot more to worry about now with Mac, Billy and Sharon getting knocked up.

    To sum it all, I am super excited that Tom has the chance to show his great talent for this genre and I hope he gets more and more responsibility there because he cares about the show he works for and is passionate about it and it shows in his writing. It is sensitive and filled with human drama and the stuff that makes great, entertaining soap. One day soon, if the genre lasts somewhat longer, I do hope to see him head write a show and really let his imagination take over. He is a welcome addition to Y&R and the exact fresh, passionate writers that is needed to help soaps even try to succeed.

  35. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    Monamis, I never said ratings don’t matter. Of course they matter, what I said is that ratings don’t denote quality. The numbers are down for all of daytime. All of daytime’s numbers, CBS Daytime’s specifically, have been eroding at an alarming pace for years. LML was no ratings hit for CBS or Y&R. Her numbers were better than the current state of Y&R in the exact same way that all soaps numbers were better back then. Megan McTavish’s version of AMC had better numbers overall too, but I don’t think the majority of fans want her back killing heroines with pancakes. If LML were still writing this show, it would be around 3.3 at best.

  36. Profile photo of monamis

    Jamey, you did say that LML caused ratings to fall because she featured Lane, when you know there were confounding factors and there is no proof of that. I liked the show better when she was writing, but admittedly, I am not a long time Y&R viewer. My babysitter watched General hospital. I loved Brad as a Jew, he had no backstory other than the pool boy for like 20 years! I feel like I am again hijacking your post, and I would like others to talk, but I feel like people are debating this point as if they have facts and all they have is their opinions.

    I’ve said before I didn’t love LML, mainly because of the way she fired DS, but she became a water mark, because you used her ratings against her, which was wrong, because her ratings were higher and her households were higher than MAB.

    These are MAB’s ratings since she took over: You can see that after the writers strike SHE HIT ALL TIME LOWS WELL INTO HER TENURE!

    Dec. 31.07 – Jan.4.08 5,713,000 4.1
    January 7-11, 2008 5,521,000 4
    January 14-18, 2008 5,599,000 4.1
    January 21-25, 2008 5,765,000 4.1
    Jan. 28 – Feb. 1, 2008 6,012,000 4.3
    February 4-8, 2008 5,551,000 4
    February 11-15, 2008 5,842,000 4.2
    February 18-22, 2008 5,855,000 4.2
    February 25-29, 2008 5,788,000 4.2
    March 3-7, 2008 5,477,000 4
    March 10-14, 2008 5,249,000 3.8
    March 17-21, 2008 5,522,000 3.9
    March 24-28, 2008 5,453,000 3.8
    March 31 – April 4, 2008 5,205,000 3.8
    April 7-11, 2008 5,087,000 3.8
    April 14-18, 2008 5,139,000 3.8
    April 21-25, 2008 5,333,000 3.8
    April 28 – May 2, 2008 5,305,000 3.8
    May 5-9, 2008 4,957,000 3.6
    May 12-16, 2008 5,066,000 3.6
    May 19-23, 2008 4,646,000 3.4
    May 26-30, 2008 4,946,000 3.6
    June 2-6, 2008 4,862,000 3.5
    June 9-13, 2008 4,784,000 3.5
    June 16-20, 2008 4,851,000 3.4
    June 23-27, 2008 4,802,000 3.6
    June 30 – July 4, 2008 4,796,000 3.4
    July 7-11, 2008 4,845,000 3.5
    July 14-18, 2008 4,893,000 3.6
    July 21-25, 2008 5,071,000 3.7
    July 28 – August 1, 2008 5,313,000 3.8
    August 4-8 2008 5,053,000 3.7
    August 11-15, 2008 5,054,000 3.6
    August 18-22, 2008 5,107,000 3.6
    August 25-29, 2008 5,150,000 3.7
    September 1-5, 2008 5,111,000 3.8
    September 8-12, 2008 5,095,000 3.7
    September 15-19, 2008 4,763,000 3.5
    September 22-26, 2008 5,195,000 3.7
    September 29 – October 3, 2008 4,939,000 3.6
    October 6-10, 2008 4,906,000 3.6
    October 13-17, 2008 4,661,000 3.4
    October 20-24, 2008 4,989,000 3.7
    October 27-31, 2008 4,704,000 3.4
    November 3-7, 2008 4,674,000 3.4
    November 10-14, 2008 4,876,000 3.6
    November 17-21, 2008 5,080,000 3.7
    November 24-28, 2008 5,109,000 3.6
    December 1-5, 2008 5,016,000 3.6
    December 8-12, 2008 5,170,000 3.7
    December 15-19, 2008 5,215,000 3.8
    December 22-26, 2008 5,254,000 3.7
    Dec. 29, 2008 – Jan. 2 2009 5,385,000 3.8
    January 5-9, 2009 5,330,000 3.8
    January 12-16, 2009 5,423,000 3.9
    January 19-23, 2009 5,217,000 3.7
    January 26-30, 2009 5,664,000 4
    February 2-6, 2009 5,355,000 3.9
    February 9-13, 2009 5,058,000 3.7
    February 16-20, 2009 5,457,000 4
    February 23-27, 200 5,280,000 3.8
    March 2-6, 2009 5,395,000 3.8
    March 9-13, 2009 5,093,000 3.6
    March 16-20, 2009 5,116,000 3.6
    March 23-27, 2009 5,195,000 3.6

  37. Profile photo of Smitty

    Oh yeah Coffee_Junkie. On top of that, instead of putting Brad with Sharon where there was amazing chemistry she sticks Sharon with Jack. That couple was horrible together and I don’t care what anyone says. Those two should have never got together. Sharon Case and Peter Bergman are two GREAT actors but they just didn’t work together!

    Once again Tom C. it was a great episode sorry to get off topic with the debauchery of LML!

  38. Profile photo of Smitty

    Monamis you can’t start the rating from when MAB took over. You know soaps are written months in advance so if MAB took over at the end of December 2007 then I wouldn’t have expected her writing to come on screen until March/April 2008. Which means it took her a good six months to get things back on the right place. If I recall correctly Y&R to me started getting its footing again when David Chow/ Sabrina where killed off. I think that was last summer. Then in September getting our Abbotts back together to begin there take over of Jabot. November Sweeps was phenomenal this past year and Y&R has only been getting better. Marge/Kay, Kay’s Funeral, Jabot Takeover, Jill’s reign of terror, Gloria going to Jail, Fisher/Baldwins being backburnered. Oh gosh I am sorry but this show is like fine wine!!!

  39. Profile photo of monamis

    Calling DC! LML is not the boogeyman, MAB her self has said she’s HBIC and has been since more than a year ago.

    Instead of trying to erroneously attribute her failings to a writer who left a year and a half ago, stop over-praising her because 2 of her 10 storylines don’t suck!

    MAB has hit 3.4 (All time low for Y&R) enough times since the writers strike for you to call her to task, without bringing up what LML did. MAB has shown with the quad that she’ll drop a storyline in a second, so whey is she taking almost 2 years to wrap up storylines she supposedly hates.

    Good grief. GMAFB!

  40. Profile photo of monamis

    Smitty, I really do respect everyone’s opinion, but please look at the ratings before you start talking about that stuff. I’ve now listed the past three years. MAB has hit all time lows plenty of times since November, and plenty of times since her months of overlap have expired.

    She is responsible. She should be accountable, but apparently not on this site. Hopefully her bosses who have to pay the bills think otherwise.

  41. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    I figured you werent a long time viewer Monamis. No offense, but now this makes sense, and I never said Lane was the only factor in viewers being turned off. I am sure, as with all of the teen girl-older-man skeeve pairing Barbara Bloom has promoted on CBS, younger viewers tuned in to see their fantasies played out, however longterm fans who watched for generations tuned out.Across the board, all daytime soaps are hitting all time lows, it’s the climate we are in, but Y&R fans are by large pleased that MAB has returned the show creatively to what it was when her father in law was runnin git.  LML was on a crash course toward killing this show. Her writing was atrocious, implausible and sophomoric. Just like David Kreizman, she had early buzz, but it went to herhead and just like all Bloom proteges, her agenda got in the way of her art.  She turned iconic characters into shells of their former selves.

  42. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    Monamis the reason praise MAB are:

    1.) She brought back Ashley and Billy Abbott, along with Traci for recurring stints, recreating the most beloved family in the show’s history. A family LML destroyed because she hated, er ‘couldn’t figure out how to write for" Eileen Davidson.

    2.) She made Victor Newman a demigod again, and reignited the Nikki/Victor/Ashley triangle that fueled the show for decades.

    3.) Wrote a sweeping, front burner storyline for Jeanne Cooper, the only core actor left from the 1970s, when the rest of daytime was putting their vets out to pasture.

    4.) Gave Jill Abbott her backbone and her claws back.

    5.) Mined history to spin years of new story for Kay and Jill, undoig Kay Alden’s ridiculous mother/daughter story and putting Billy Abbott in a triangle with Chloe, Esther’s child and Mac, Kay’s granddaughter, never slighting the vets or using them as props, but also giving them rich stories to play out.

    6.) Revisiting Nick and Sharon’s star-crossed love, without negating the popularity of Phyllis and Nick. Giving both actresses the best material they’ve seen in five years to play out.

    7.) Giving us the amazing Daniel and Amber love story—sorry,I prefer quirky, unique, characters falling in love over toothpaste, which is what I think when I think of the contrived, overrated Lane.


    You said yourself you haven’t watched this show for a long time. That explains why you thought LML was so great. Maybe with her own daytime soap, she would have been fine, but coming in to one that was beloved, and that people like me have watched since the womb—peaking out from our mother’s belly buttons—and arrogantly putting her own brash stamp on it almost sent Y&R into freefall. LML was George Bush. She set things in a dowward spiral, and MAB has to clean it up. It will take time for the ratings to reflect that, but in the meantime, at least long term fans of daytime soap operas can rejoice that at least one writing team cares about US again. I’m sorry, but the newer viewers have had their decade, and look where it got the industry? Trying to throw out the vets and disregard longterm fans in order to attract new viewers is why this industry is dying. Flash-in-the-pain ratings spikes won’t sustain this genre, but the kind of good, old-fashioned, soap opera stoytelling they are doing at Y&R just might.

  43. Profile photo of Smitty

    I liked the show better when she was writing, but admittedly, I am not a long time Y&R viewer. My babysitter watched General hospital. I loved Brad as a Jew, he had no backstory other than the pool boy for like 20 years! I feel like I am again hijacking your post, and I would like others to talk, but I feel like people are debating this point as if they have facts and all they have is their opinions.

    I’ve said before I didn’t love LML, mainly because of the way she fired DS, but she became a water mark, because you used her ratings against her, which was wrong, because her ratings were higher and her households were higher than MAB.


    No offense monamis but this explains it all. I have never based my argument on whos better based on ratings. The ratings don’t mean much to me. Ratings don’t dictate whether I think something is good or bad. If Davetta Sherwood’s firing is your major problem with LML then all I can say is WOW. I liked DS but LML firing was the least of our problems with us long time viewers.

    Monamis we will have to agree to disagree!

  44. Profile photo of Coffee_Junkie

    Monamis, Brad DID have a back story. Since you’re a newer Y&R viewer you missed it. LML CHANGED his back story. See it here:

    Brad was not Jewish. Never WAS Jewish. He was never a Navy Seal. He was married when he was young. Years later the wife showed up in GC all schizo (Lisa Mansfield). Brad even had lunch with his mother once in the 80s. She was NOT Jewish, and she was not in hiding from any Nazis.

    For you to keep bringing up Y&R’s ratings shows you have little/no understanding whatsoever of daytime ratings in general.

    LML’s writing SUCKED. Nuff’ said.

  45. Profile photo of McD720

    1.) She brought back Ashley and Billy Abbott, along with Traci for recurring stints, recreating the most beloved family in the show’s history. A family LML destroyed because she hated, er ‘couldn’t figure out how to write for” Eileen Davidson.

    2.) She made Victor Newman a demigod again, and reignited the Nikki/Victor/Ashley triangle that fueled the show for decades.

    3.) Wrote a sweeping, front burner storyline for Jeanne Cooper, the only core actor left from the 1970s, when the rest of daytime was putting their vets out to pasture.

    4.) Gave Jill Abbott her backbone and her claws back.

    5.) Mined history to spin years of new story for Kay and Jill, undoig Kay Alden’s ridiculous mother/daughter story and putting Billy Abbott in a triangle with Chloe, Esther’s child and Mac, Kay’s granddaughter, never slighting the vets or using them as props, but also giving them rich stories to play out.

    6.) Revisiting Nick and Sharon’s star-crossed love, without negating the popularity of Phyllis and Nick. Giving both actresses the best material they’ve seen in five years to play out.

    7.) Giving us the amazing Daniel and Amber love story—sorry,I prefer quirky, unique, characters falling in love over toothpaste, which is what I think when I think of the contrived, overrated Lane.


    Jamey – you are the master. Everything you listed was everything that my beloved Y&R should be and continues to be everyday. In my 24 years of life all of it except the LML period was spent spellbound by this show. Its former glory has been restored and it is completely in the right hands.

    Monamis – it was pretty clear to me that you were not a long time viewer because I think anyone who has at least 10 years of history with this show could see that everything LML spewed out was in complete disregard of Bill Bell’s legacy. He was spinning in his grave for those two years. None of this is meant to offend you but those of us that are happy with Maria’s storytelling are not being brainwashed as you seem to think we are. We are just happy that we have our show, families and characters back. You aren’t going to find many allies in your fight to defend LML. What she did should not be defended in any way.

    And if we are going to go by ratings then I can guarantee that the ratings under Kay Alden were higher than LML’s but none of us want her back either. The erosion of viewers has been a gradual thing for about 10 years now.

  46. Profile photo of Melvins mom
    Melvins mom

    Okay, first off, congratulations to Tom Casiello. I remember thinking when he had been fired from Days that I hoped he would somehow make it onto the staff at Y&R. His blog entry about Sami and Lucas’s wedding showed his careful attention to details, history and most of all, his deep appreciation of the characters (and this is coming from an EJAMI fan).

    Anyways, on to the back and forth about LML and MAB. I think it’s important to remember that one reason why MAB is being praised so much over LML is that this woman has had to take a show that had reached its lowest in creativity and bring it back to what long-time viewers loved. If you are not a fan of sometimes drawn out stories that center on family, relationships (not just sex scenes) and business struggles, then this is not the soap for you.
    Numbers are lower, but so are everyone’s and those who resented what LML did to the show may never tune in again.
    LML received a beauty of a soap–though there were things I didn’t like about Jack Smith’s writing, but most of what LML is praised for was already there waiting for her to be mined (the fallout of Cassie’s death, aka Phick, Gloria in the Abbot family, Michael and Kevin being brothers, etc). It’s what she did with those things that became so disappointing and frustrating. I really think Jack and Sharon could have been written so beautifully because they were two completely broken souls over what had happened to them, but the fast-paced storytelling and lack of building that relationship ruined my investment in it. I could rant about the destruction of Brad or Clear Springs, but I won’t. What MAB has managed to do with what was left waiting for her when she took over is nothing short of of amazing, and for the most part, her new stories are fantastic for a long-time viewer.
    Okay, I’m done now.

  47. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    Monamis, since you wanted facts, here’s a more accurate depiction of the ratings than blanketly sayin fans preferred LML because her numbers were higher. Y&R’s ratings, like all soaps, have pretty much declined each season since 1999-00 about two to three points a season, due to the advent of cable, the Internet, etc., but check out Y&R the season prior to LML and Barbara Bloom’s coupe. It was at 5.2, by the time LML’s reign of terror was over the show had lost over a million viewers. Viewership ERODED under LML faster than any other head writer/executive. How do you explain your girl taking the show from a 5.2, to a 4.2???? Maria is down about 2 points off LML, again due to the normal decline of viewing habits for the genre, but a million viewers in one season???? That was the gift of Lynn Marie Latham. Thank you Babs, for hiring your homie to wreck the Bell’s soap opera.

    Season 05 to 06

    1. The Young And The Restless 5.2

    • 2. The Bold And The Beautiful 3.4
    • 3. General Hospital 2.9
    • 4. Days of our Lives 2.8
    • 5. As The World Turns 2.7
    • 6. All My Children 2.6
    • 7. One Life to Live 2.5
    • 8. Guiding Light 2.4
    • 9. Passions 1.9

     Season 06 to 07

    • 1. The Young And The Restless 4.2
    • 2. The Bold And The Beautiful 2.8
    • 3. General Hospital 2.6
    • 4. One Life to Live 2.4
    • 5. All My Children 2.3
    • 6. Days of our Lives 2.2
    • 7. As the World Turns 2.1
    • 8. Guiding Light 2.0
    • 9. Passions 1.7

     Season 07 to 08

    • 1. The Young And The Restless 4.0
    • 2. The Bold And The Beautiful 2.8
    • 3. As the World Turns 2.4
    • 4. General Hospital 2.3
    • 5. Days of our Lives 2.2
    • 6. One Life to Live 2.1
    • 7. All My Children 2.0
    • 8. Guiding Light 1.8

     Season September 22, 2008 through April 12, 2009

    • 1. The Young and the Restless 3.8
    • 2. The Bold and the Beautiful 2.6
    • 3. Days of our Lives 2.2
    • 4. General Hospital 2.2
    • 5. All My Children 2.1
    • 6. One Life to Live 2.1
    • 7. As the World Turns 2.0
    • 8. Guiding Light 1.6
  48. Profile photo of Coffee_Junkie

    I’ll never forget seeing Lynn Marie Latham on Soap Talk (hosted by Ty Treadway and Lisa Rinna) right after she got the job as Y&R head writer. She sat there with her pink, green, and purple hair giggling and declaring that she had never seen Y&R before. I remember turning to my friend and saying, “OMG, Y&R is in huge, HUGE trouble.”

  49. Profile photo of monamis

    If you don’t think ratings matter in this business, you ignore the reason for our perilous existence today. You can only rely on opinions of financial analysts, pundits and soap box preachers for so long before Peter has to pay Paul.

    It’s not a growth strategy, but if you guys like pandering oldskool, I love it. There are plenty of people who also loved:

    1) The well written and more skillfully done drama of the Baldwin/Fisher family under LML vs. the Chipmunk chronicles.
    2) Neil having the balls to not take shorts from Victor and starting his own business
    3) The Winters integrated with the rest of the cast instead of localized into internment camps
    4) Drucilla featured prominently as a businesswoman
    5) The death of Casey and the fallout involving Phyllis/Nick/Sharon
    6) The Death of John Abbot that was masterfully executed if not short-sighted.
    7) The creation of Cane
    8) The creation of Lane
    9) Daily on the run

    Just like LML’s hype, MAB has received a lot of hype, from pundits, even as her high ratings exist only in the minds of her loyal followers (that say ratings don’t matter).

    I loved the return of Billy Abbot/Kay’s being featured prominently, and the return of the Abbots the first few months, but its sophmoric to write an ensemble cast as if there are only two characters and the rest are dayplayers.

    But again, I vote with my remote, and rant on this site and others. At the end of the day, despite my lack of understanding, ratings matter because they determine, the viability of this genre, how much sponsors are willing to pay, and whether your soap stays on the air.

    So when this soap is only available on the internet in 15 minute shorts on youtube, because it hasn’t netted new viewers, I hope the post mortem on Y&R includes more than just an opinion of who is a good writer, and some hearty analysis into what really happened.

    G’Night and G’Luck!

  50. Profile photo of monamis


    You know better. You as an insider are telling us that we should ignore the first 1.5 years of MAB’s ratings, because she’s cleaning up LML’s mess, which I didn’t know when I posted LML’s ratings, but LML should take credit for declining ratings on her first day of work before her stories even start to air?

    Let’s defer to a specialist please. I work with numbers, and yours are not making sense to me. Pick another metric, please.

  51. Profile photo of Lala Land
    Lala Land

    Jamey why are you shocked that Cane hugged Chloe?

    1) This is the same man who kissed her and only told Lily about the incident when he found out that Crazy Kate locked lips with her brother. Call me delusional, but Cane has a huge ego when it comes to women. He thinks he is the hottest thing in the world and the fact that Kate had the nerve to kiss Devon pissed him off more than doing the right thing.

    2) Even after warning Lily to stay away from his stalker, he then had the nerve to help the chick find a new apartment. Let’s not forget that he got drunk in her prescence (idiot).

    3) Cane may have hated Crazy Kate at the beginning (with good reason) but he slowly started to warm up to the heiffer after the spawns life was in jeopordy (Crazy Kate falling off the ladder). In my opinion it seemed that the writers were heading for Chane; the bookstore scene had Cane egging Kate’s crazy behaviour on, joking with one another numerous times and of course the almost kiss. Chane will always be a missed opportunity.

    4) I hate Lane but what are you on about with the claim that they are in Billy/Crazy Kate’s orbit? The last time I checked Kate molested her way into Cane’s life while Billy was too busy trying to woo Lily than raise his spawn.

    5) MAB is overrated. She has reduced Jill to being Victor Newman’s puppet. Jill has been unrecognizable for quite some time now (LML’s reign when she was getting outfoxxed by dimwit Gloria). The real Jill would have buried Crazy Kate along time ago. Cane is suppose to be Jill’s favourite son but she fails to seek revenge on Chloe because of Delia? GMAFB! She treated Nina far worse despite giving birth to her grandson. Terrible writing.

    6) MAB has also continued to contribute to the destruction of the Winters family. She also loves assinating the good characters in order to pimp her pets. Colleen, Lily, Karen and Sharon are deeped as boring to most viewers (everyone is entitled to their opinion) but they are no longer the characters that I love. From jump MAB shouldn’t have hooked up Colleen with Daniel or have Lily accept their fling. That incident has tainted my love for Colleen/Lily. The move was a plot point in order to divide the friends even more when Lily being the Fresh Face of Jabot.

    Also there was no explanation given for the U-turn of Karen; a woman who turned down Kneel’s request to raise Lily’s child together, proposal and fled to NY. When Tyred and orphan Annie shoed up she was turned into a fragile, child obessed freak. Everything revolved around Kneel and his wants. Gang me!

    Sharon has always been a lovable ho but the fact that she acknowledges that she has a problem but doesn’t seek help is lame. Which is one of the reasons why I don’t feel sorry for her. She was strong, independent when Niclueless was out of her life (thanks to Dru and the ONLY positive thing to take from LML’s reign).

    Lastly, it seems that these women (less so with Colleen) are only able to make a decision and stick with it AFTER they’ve been aroarsed/sexed up. PATHETIC. They’re so wishy-washy which is annoying.

    7) Lily and Devon need to stop worshipping the ground that Kneel walks on. The man is a hypocrite and downright loser. This was his second affair but yet MAB and co. completely ignore it. Have Lily or Devon openly acknowledge that this was not a one off situation and that he cheated on Dru with Carmen. Their disapproval and anger should be directed towards Kneel more than Tyred. Hopefully, this will give Devon and Lily the chance to tell him to mind his own buisness since his life is in shambles.

    Devon and Lily both lack character development. Both characters were interesting when they first appeared in GC (yes, I adore snobby Lily from Paris despite the lack of a French accent and Devon’s rude boy ways). Better yet, give Devon a MALE friend, show is relationship with Roxanne and let him reconnect with TGVN. Devon is onle ever on when he is giving Lily advice, checking up on orphan Annie and his trampy aunt.

    MAB should also have Lane acknowledge the different stages in life that Lane are at. Sorry, Lane fans but the Delia storyline showed me that Cane wants to build a family NOW and to hell what with HOW. Lily in my opinion is way too young to be saddled at home with a baby, no career and social life. And lets face it she doesn’t have much of either.

    Lily needs to graduate, find a career and develop inner strength before she decides to marry again. She needs to hang with people her own age and do what 21 yr olds do: party, socialize, be irresponsible and have fun. Everytime that she is with Cane, I don’t see a young mature lady but a girl who is trying to act mature. For instance Lily stating that she would have taken Cane back if the baby wasn’t his doesn’t scream mature but stupid. She would have always wondered what went down unless Crazy Kate spills the beans.

    Lastly, Lily needs to be single and do what is best for her. Far too often she has reached out to others, only to get punked off by them. Let her GROW from the drama that is her life for once writers. Lily shouldn say “Hi haters” and continue with her life.

    PS: Lily’s scene with Billy was too cute.

  52. Profile photo of McD720

    monamis – Some of those things you listed as great things that were written by LML were actually written under the tenure of Jack Smith and Kay Alden. The death of Cassie/Shick fallout/Start of Phick affair was all done by Smith and Alden. Dru as a prominent business woman was not how LML wrote her… she wrote her as a jealous shrew who eventually fell off a cliff because VR couldn’t take it under the leadership of LML.

    I am not exactly sure of which great things you are referring to about Kevin and Michael because they are always great to me but most of their heaviest story took place in 2004/2005 with the Terrible Tom death stuff being in 2006 which lead to LML putting the show’s patriarch – John Abbott in jail which lead to his eventual and unnecessary death. Now I love the characters of Kevin and Michael but the destruction of the Abbotts to suit the great family story of the Fisher/Baldwins was a travesty. The Abbotts are the most popular family in the history of this show and should never be brought down to suit an exec’s agenda.

  53. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    4) Drucilla featured prominently as a businesswoman
    Dru being a businesswoman happened long before LML. LML wrote her as a ghetto, crazed hood rat, complete with a straightjacket. Did you look at the ratings I posted? You wanted to talk numbers, let’s talk? You want to talk about ratings being down 2 points, the average for at least the past decade, for MAB, yet, what do you think of Y&R losing one million viewers during LML’s first year?

  54. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    Monamis, they aren’t my numbers, they are Nielsens. 5.2 in 05-06, 4.2 in 06-07, pretty easy to follow, so I don’t think my metrics are the problem. You keep talking about LML being more popular because her numbers were better than MAB’s in the year and a hald since she’s been charge. I maintain Y&R is down around 2 to 3 rating points over last year, which has been the average decline. However, looking at the year prior to LML (05-06) and then looking at her numbers her first disastrous year (06-07), you see she lost a million viewers. 5.2 to 4.2. Please tell me again how this is just my opinion? That hack with her goofy hair and hippy politics drove away a million viewers!

  55. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    And Monamis, as for you being a specialist with numbers, I worked for the Department of Defense as a Quality and Reliability Assurance Specialst for three years before getting back into publishing, taking graduate level course work in statistics. I wrote my term paper on the Nielsens, soooo yeah, I don’t just know story, I know numbers, please don’t get it twisted! LOL You wanted to take it to the digits, I took it there. Look at em. The ratings for Y&R have been on a steady bleed out since the end of the 90s, but under your girl the patient almost hemmoraged her first year!

  56. Profile photo of McD720

    I’m starting to think Monamis is LML’s son or husband. I’ve never seen someone defend her so vehemently on the web.


    Never seen it either coffee_junkie and didn’t think I ever would. I didn’t think it was possible. But first time for anything I suppose.

  57. Profile photo of Nathang1983

    Oh, I’ve gotta agree with what looks to be the majority on this one. LML was crazy. Maria Arena Bell has done much more good than bad. She’s bringing back Nina! I grew up watching her. She and Hogan are bringing back the veterans and bringing back this show to what it once was: a story with history and core families. Ironically enough, that’s exactly what Hogan Sheffer did with Days. He had his bad storylines too. Remember the Tinda Lau or whatever it was called? That one stunk like a big one, but overall he brought the show back to its glory and they even got some Emmy nominations out of it last year. The guy’s not perfect and neither is MAB, but they know their stuff. They put Dena Higley to shame. She should know the rich history of Days; she wrote for it for 17 years.

  58. Profile photo of Smitty

    I’m starting to think Monamis is LML’s son or husband. I’ve never seen someone defend her so vehemently on the web.


    Something is up because I haven’t seen any Y&R fan praise LML’s writing or reign of terror! I am surprised monamis hasn’t said anything about LML winning an Emmy. Further proof that the Emmy’s are crap since she won one.

  59. Profile photo of McD720

    Never seen that huge drop from 2005 to 2006 until today. I knew it was bad but never really saw the averages. monamis – its there in black and white. She nearly killed this show in 12 months…that was all it took her. Not surprised at how staggering those numbers are… my senior year of college was during LML and I watched nearly all of my fellow Y&R fan friends collectively tune out and we were in college so we were easily able to watch – we all were just long time viewers who were disgusted by the show and refused to be subjected to her lunacy.

    If you want to go back to the ratings issue then why aren’t you campaigning for Jack Smith and Kay Alden to return? The ratings were loads higher than LML with them as the execs in charge.

  60. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    I’m starting to think Monamis is LML’s son or husband. I’ve never seen someone defend her so vehemently on the web.
    Nah, y’all don’t go there. She is entitled to her opinion. I’m just saying, she wanted to talk facts and numbers as opposed to opinions, so I am now bringing the numbers. Anyone who follows daytime ratings know that each year there has been decline since the end of the 90s, however, from season 05-06 to 05-07 Y&R went from 5.2 to 4.2. That was a bigger drop than GL after the new production model, which made international news….Ellen Wheeler should be pissed off that more people weren’t blasting LML.

    The two point decline MAB has seen is average. and the year isn’t even over. She has spiked the show to 4.1 at least once since she took over and I predict her numbers will only get better. You’re right, we have a lot of love for her. We have a lot of love for ANY writer who wil focus in on the vets and long term characters we know and love, and actually commits to telling long term, well thought out stories. Has she had some stink bombs? Sure. I hate Restless Style and this chipmunk story blows, but overall she is a Bronte sister compared to LML.

  61. Profile photo of ad-girl

    Great exchange between Jamey & Monamis!

    On Ratings:
    I don’t think anyone has mentioned soapnet or online views. Y&R has been doing very well on soapnet and growing each quarter. Also, isn’t Y&R in the top twenty in online views? Not sure but thought I read that somewhere.

    According to Futon Critic, “”The Young and the Restless” posted the show’s best quarterly ratings ever on SOAPnet in Total Viewers (746,000) and Women 18-49 (254,000).

    Versus year-ago levels, “The Young and the Restless” improved by a hefty 45% in Total Viewers (746,000 vs. 513,000) and by 60% in Women 18-49 (254,000 vs. 159,000).”

    If you aggregate all CBS, soapnet, and online (, youtube, etc.), the ratings under MAB should be comparable to LML and may even be slightly higher.

    On quality
    That’s subjective. Jamey cares about the history of Y&R and I love him for it. The MAB bashers don’t really care about history. They just want any old generic soap with pretty people in Harlequin stories. To each his own, but why does Y&R, the fine wine that gets better with age need to be turned into a wine spritzer when there are plenty of other soaps that are history-free?

    I enjoy Cane, Lily and Lane but they are not the most important part of the show. If I had to choose between Victor being written in character as the vicious tyrant we love to hate or Lane skipping through the park, it’s a no-brainer. I want my V-TV!

    I can still criticize MAB, too!
    MAB is the Obama to LML’s Bush, but we can still call MAB out on her mistakes:

    The Chipmunk story? Dreadful. The Clint actor? Terrible and a waste of screentime. The Fisher-Baldwins are still on far too much. Gloria & Jeff should ride off into the sunset never to be heard from again. The Mac recast is all wrong and has no chemistry with Billy. Katherine looks like an idiot for offering the Bartender the CEO job of Chancellor. What happened to the corporate intrigue? We hardly ever see Newman or Jabot any more. Is Victoria still on the show? Use her or recast her but don’t disappear Victor’s oldest child. MAB’s done well by the Abbotts and Chancellors but I don’t think she’s done nearly enough with the Newmans at all. Jamey alludes to the Nikki/Victor/Ashley triangle but there’s been very little of it on my screen.

  62. Profile photo of Coffee_Junkie

    I loved Clint Radisson! He’s campy but so what? I loved him back in the day, and this time around. His zingers/one liners were hilarious.

    I can take camp on Y&R, as long as it’s in small doses.

    The CHIPMUNK has GOT to go, though. That ridiculous plot has Paul Rauch’s name all over it.

  63. Profile photo of monamis

    Jamey, the metrics problem is that you are claiming that there is a lag time between tenure and airing of scripts and when LML started in late 1st quarter of the 06 season, you account for no lag time and assume she is responsible for dramatically declining ratings, when according to your advice she should have at least a 4 month lag, but if your MAB a 1.5 year lag.

    These are the same crickets I heard when I posted all of LML’s ratings. You cannot evaluate tenure like this, it is not correct.

    I ‘m not sure if I can do this on line, but I absolutely love to be proven wrong, so I will glady admit it if you can correctly attribute the ratings decline to LML, which your team has been loathe to do for some time now.

  64. Profile photo of monamis

    I did bring up LML’s emmy, which I discounted because I don’t think they are worth anything. I’m not a boy, not LML’s kin, and as I’ve said, don’t like her personally, but I sure don’t like people misrepresenting ratings.

    I work in numbers, and have to analysis on national campaigns, and if an ad airs, in period 1 we don’t look in period 1 for impact, we go to the expect impact period which may be period 2, 4 or even 6. Jamey has given us no guidelines with which to view these numbers, had not response last week when I posted them, and now that he’s pulled average numbers over annual periods that do not correspond to the writers to which we are referring, I don’t think it is appropriate to make this point.

    Say you hate LML, say you hate me, but make a point that is valid based on something more substansial than subjective critiques of writing.

    I think Sharon and Nick are great togethers as do my college buddies who are longer term viewers, but Phick was good soap, and even old time viewers can acknowledge that.

  65. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    Uh, try again, LOL television seasons start in Sept. LML started in Sept of that year and lost a MILLION viewers. Let’s say my earlier argument is wrong, you want that to the be the case, so okay, nobody gets any lag time. You’r girl still had a PLATINUM decline her first year. Math is math. Now you wanted to talk math. We can go back to opinion, I can do either. The math shows LML drove away a million viewers with her ridiculous, stories, that by the way she implemented VERY quickly, Maria took her time and started cleaning things up slowly, which if you listen to the podcast, frustrated me. I wanted instant gratification after having my show ruined by LML. Obviously MAB knew better than I did. Homegirl took her time, hired the executive producer who caused AW to shot to the top in the 70s and the head writer who took ATWT from Number 7 to Number 3, and slowly, methodically undid all of LML’s b.s. B.S. that she accomplished in two short years.  And what do you mean I cannot value a tenure like that? What you are trying to say, is we can only evaluate it your way. I am looking at the Nielsens. LML started at the beginning of the 06-07 season and by the end of that season, 1 million viewers were gone. Do you deny that? Even if we give her the lag time you say I want writers to have, she still lost much more viewers than MAB has. MAB has gained viewers in several demos. LML cost the show a million viewers. She was a hack who had no value for history, which is why the Bells seized control. Do you think MAB would have wanted the job if that heifer was making them money? No she hadn’t written in 20 years. She stepped in to SAVE her family business, and since you have only, by your admission, been watching a few years, you don’t have any context concerning this show when it was most popular among fans. I do, and that’s when the Abbotts, Newmans and Chancellors were written for in larger-than-life, sweeping stories, that paid attention to history. Call it "old school" all you want, but no one was standing up and cheering for LML, well, except for newer viewers who had nothing to compare her to.

  66. Profile photo of monamis

    BTW, the crickets you heard were me driving home from work, stop making up stories, its the DC crew that failed to respond to any of the ratings challenges presented last week, and now have chosen to misalign rating points to the tenure of writers.

    How is LML gonna have impact on stories that were written before she got there?

    If you want to do this for real, than do it for real. Make your damn point and show why LML deserves all of 2006? I have no dog in this fight, except for accuracy and credibility, which I admit this is not my industry.

    Let’s not get emotional about things that can be easily sorted out.

  67. Profile photo of McD720

    Wow… even a post about about Tom Casiello’s fantastic debut gets hijacked by LML. She is a powerful force. But I am out on this one now.


  68. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    What guidelines do you need???????????????? LML took over in Sept of 06, that is the beginning of the TV season. Flash forward to the next year and the show was down from 5.2 to 4.2. Seriously, you can wish the numbers were different to make your case, but it won’t change—wait for it—the facts. You wanted to take it to numbers, now you’re saying I am not giving you "guidelines".

  69. Profile photo of monamis

    September of what year Jamey? wikipedia which you quoted for LML shows her tenure as 2/16/06 to 12/24/07. If I am wrong on this correct, me and I will absolutely go to the numbers and correct it. You keep restating things but you’re not answering my question, and when I quoted this, you failed to respond.

    Are you saying her tenure is wrong, and she started in september? what’s the source?

  70. Profile photo of monamis

    Jamey if you want a discussion, let’s have one, if you won’t respond to level set our assumptions, than you can have the bully pulpit, and I’ll shut up.

  71. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    Here’s why she "deserves" the credit for all of season 06-07

    Lynn Marie Latham

    • Executive Producer: September 2006 – December 24, 2007
    • Head Writer: February 16, 2006 – December 24, 2007
    • Creative Consultant: November 14, 2005 –  February 15, 2006

    The season started in September 2006…By the end of that season, wow this is beginning to be like ground hog’s day, the show had lost one million viewers. :O

  72. Profile photo of monamis

    These are the dates I’m working with for one:

    LML 2/16/06 to 12/24/07
    MAB CO-HW 12/26/07 to 4/21/08
    MAB HW 4/22/08 to present
    W-Strike 11/5/07 to 2/12/08

    I ask these apparently silly questions because both Luke and Jillian have said LML is responsible for making Jill/Kay mother and daughter, none of you corrected it, and I know you know that is wrong. So I’m asking you to correct me, if you have accurate info. These are the dates I have for head writing. They don’t seem to match yours, what’s the discrepancy?

  73. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    Monamis you are getting defensive because I have given you what you wanted and you can’t debate the numbers after declaring yourself a "specialist" Television seasons start in September….LML took over in Septembe of 2006. and ran the show the entire 06-07 season. She was also head writer for the first half of the second season. From one season to the next, a million viewers were lost. The Bells stepped back in to stop the bleedout. I have been ready to have a discussion, you are the one getting hostile because you keep wanting to act like we at DC are basing our LML hate on "opinions". Sorry, but the facts are not on your side.

  74. Profile photo of Jillian Bowe
    Jillian Bowe

    Damn Jamey just when I thought I had to come on in you just slip into my head and steal the shit I was going to say! *LOL* Smitty I see your part of the church bandwaggon. Monamis why are you being a bit upset over the fact that your LML is being called out on her shit but when MAB is praised its as if that is high treason. I’l give LML this though, when she was writing she did give my beloved Nikki Newman a backbone when going up against Victor. Give her props to that. I can call a spade a spade and trust and believe LML made me wonder if watching Y&R was even wroth the time and hassle. MAB has some turkeys, the chipmunk chaos/Clint TV and The Winters dumpling gang and to her credit she’s done away with that mess.

  75. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    MAB took over during the Strike, which allowed the Bells the opportunity to seize back control of their show in time to stave off the near record ratings decline LML’s reign was bringing about. Jillian never said LML made Kay and Jill mother and daughter. And Luke used the reveal that Kay wasn’t Jill’s mother as a moment to celebrate LML being gone, in terms of good drama being back on the show, but he never said he attributed that to her. We didn’t have to correct him, because he responded himself in the comments.

  76. Profile photo of Jillian Bowe
    Jillian Bowe

    Ok now I wanna know when did I SAY that LML made Kay and Jill mom and daughter because I know I said that came out of Kay Alden’s behind. When you like to say that you love to base things of facts please tell me when I said that becaue I know I did take Ms. Alden to task for that mess along with the great sperm debacle with Ashley/Nikki/Diane.

  77. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    Your dates leave out that LML took over as executive producer Sept. 2006. That’s where we don’t line up. Yeah, she didn’t wrestle control of the writers room—and fire all of Bill Bell’s writers except for four, replacing them with her pals from primetime—until that next February.

  78. Profile photo of monamis

    OK, now we’re getting somewhere, so is a creative consultant the same as a Head Writer/Executive Producer?

    So you are telling me that from November 14,2005 through February 16th, 2006 (3 months) , LML as a “Creative Consultant” lost 1 million viewers in 3 months, but then after that 3 months, she miraculously stopped losing viewers and was able to stay above a 4 or significantly higher for the majority of her weeks.

    I’m sorry I’m stupid, I don’t get it. You fall off a cliff in 3 months, but then stabilize or get better, makes absolutely no sense to me.

    I can see you have no interest in explaining this in a way that is appropriate for the writing tenure,titles or industry accepted standards which have nothing to do with my preference.

    Go ahead and say that LML is a crappy writer if you want, apparently accurate analyses don’t matter to you, and although it matters to me, it is clear not to your readers. I’m fine with that but please don’t throw numbers in my face, when you are not willing to use them appropriately.

  79. Profile photo of monamis

    Jillian, you said it in a podcast, I will have to go back and listen for which one, it’s almost a month back now, you did say Kay/Jill was LML’s fault, as did Luke.

  80. Profile photo of Coffee_Junkie

    UNDOING Jill as Katherine’s daughter is the only thing I’m pissed off about that MAB did. There were other ways to put angst back into Jill and Katherine’s relationship and MAB (IMHO) should have left well enough alone. Heck, she could have had Jill run over Murphy, or something. I have a feeling he is not long for this world, anyway.

  81. Profile photo of monamis

    ad-girl, I appreciate balance, which I think you’ve brought to this, but many MAB bashers hate that Lane has become a skinemax couple who only have love scenes, and proposals, and have stepped away, that is why there is protest. It’s not even the lack of screen time, it is what is shown on screen compared to the lop-sided character development of an ensemble cast.

  82. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    Monamis aint nobody talking about creative consultant, so if you were waiting on that one, you can save it. I simply copied and pasted her entire job description from the show, back to the drawing board! LOL She took over as show runner that Sept, the start of the TV season that saw the show drop a million viewers.  Our viewers are free to look up the numbers for themselves. And nobody threw anything at you, you wanted to talk numbers so we did. LML tanked the show ratings wise. The numbers co-sign that fact. As for opinion, the opinion of the majority of the fans is that she was a hack who wrecked the show and pissed on it’s history. She loses the popular vote and in the numbers. We can debate this all day long, but if you are gonna get huffy when your status as a "numbers specialist" is challenged, then that’s on you. You like to re-create what people say to make your points. I never once said her status as creative consultant was a factor, although, brass tacks, that was all part of Bloom’s plan. She sold the Bells on LML and got them to let the fox in the henhouse, big mistake. HUGE.

  83. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    All roads lead back to Lane. See, that right there is your issue. LML’s five fans are pissed off because they seriously think Lane should be on five days a week. Who cares about Kay or Nikki, Victor or Jack. The show should be All-Lane/All The Time. I almost wish they would do this…to see all the older viewers tune out the same way they did when GL and ATWT stopped playing the vets to prop tired, bland, cookie cutter pairings. Unfortunately, we don’t have time for that experiment and MAB realizes the way to keep a show on the air is to value the viewers who have watched for 20 plus years, as opposed to trying to attract 100,000 young girls, who will only stick around till their couple leaves. Ask GL about building shows around one couple. Jammy anyone?

  84. Profile photo of monamis

    LOL Jamey! Me the numbers specialist, I said this isn’t my industry, and I didn’t understand the tenure. I asked you to explain it to me so I could check my assumptions, but you and the DC crew have been silent for a week, and now you are selectively explaining things that we look to you to understand.

    I don’t think we’re getting anywhere but I am definitely going to do my own research with the ad agency I work with to make sure I do this correctly.

    If and when I’m proven wrong I have no problem posting it so that we can put this to rest once and for all. I hate to hijack your threads like this, but really, if me asking for clarification is getting huffy, then let me know and I’ll back off.

    This was totally unnecessary.

  85. Profile photo of Coffee_Junkie

    QUOTE: All roads lead back to Lane. See, that right there is your issue. LML’s five fans are pissed off because they seriously think Lane should be on five days a week. The show should be All-Lane/All The Time. I almost wish they would do this…to see all the older viewers tune out the same way they did when GL and ATWT stopped playing the vets to prop tired, bland, cookie cutter pairings. Unfortunately, we don’t have time for that experiment and MAB realizes the way to keep a show on the air is to value the viewers who have watched for 20 plus years, as opposed to trying to attract 100,000 young girls, who will only stick around till their couple leaves.

    BRAVO!!!!! That’s it in a nutshell.

    Marry me.

  86. Profile photo of monamis


    Clearly you didn’t read the post, I was responding directly to ad girl, and before I fight for Lane, I would fight for the segregation of the winters, or the stupid misuse lack of use of CLB, GR and MS.

    Even MS said she had to go back and clarify motivation for that stupid Phyllis goes crazy because she is jealous? That motivation was stupid and being the pro that she was, she explained it to the writers and got it corrected.

    I have a lot of people I admire, but I also have no problem criticizing them.

  87. Profile photo of Jillian Bowe
    Jillian Bowe

    C.H.U.R.C.H Jamey! Look I am along with the majority of the DC crew are in the age range that writers are trying to capture by ramming the younger generations down our throats and FYI I am not trying to hear that noise! When Lane and other younger characters were propped up 24/7 under LML I wasn’t into it that’s not what hooked me to this show. Its the same characters that are on my screen now. For the newer viewers of Y&R listen up: The show is a *GASP* ensamble cast now a one man or one couple show and that right there is one of the reasons that fans decided to vote with their remote earlier on with LML. Since when is Lane the only couple showing skin? Phick’s all about showing skin and now Shick. That argument is out the window.

  88. Profile photo of east.west

    Nia was AMAZING yesterday and I wish she wasn’t going, but she left w/her head held high and w/a Emmy worthy performance.
    Tom did a good job penning this episode.
    Jamey & monamis debate is interesting b/c I can see both points each way.
    LML did have some decent stuff, but it is chump change to MAB material.
    What I will give LML is that she (or someone on her team) wrote one of my all time favorite scenes (Daniel admitting to Michael that he was addicted to porn. Now that was Emmy winning gold for Michael G!), but letting your personal agenda getting in the way of art like Jay said was her downfall. Getting rid of the high and fancy stuff for one things. I remember watching Chloe and Billy’s wedding and thinking to myself if LML was still there that wedding wouldn’t be what it was.

    But anywho thank goodness for the change and keep it up Y&R.

  89. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    This was totally unnecessary.
    And so were "GMAFB" and " let’s leave it to a specialist". I respect you as a reader and even like you as a poster, but I tend to give as good as I get. I can debate civilly all day, but I expect the same. You tend to always accuse DC of drinking MAB’s kool aid, as if all of DC thinks just alike. Newsflash. We aren’t the mags. We don’t get exclusive sit downs with MAB, photo spreads, etc. There’s no reason for us to praise the show, except that we like it. Hell, we don’t even get any Y&R interviews! LOL We have no dog in this fight. Wait, I take that back. Our dog is the classic soap fan. That’s who we are betting it all on. Do you listen to our show? We barely agree on anything, but the one thing that uniets us is a love for what soap opera was at it’s best, and in our opinion, and basically ever other soap critic in the game, that is what MAB is doing. So if one magazine and website after another, that has varying thoughts and opinions about soaps are all saying MAB is doing stellar work, and a handful of LML fans are wishing for her horror days all because she favored their couple, who’s drinking whose kool aid? Soaps are ensembles. MAB understands that. I am sorry if that means Lane can’t eat the show with their love.

  90. Profile photo of Jillian Bowe
    Jillian Bowe

    Again new viewers Phyllis always has and always will be bat shit crazy and Michelle Stafford said that she found it crazy that Phyllis is needs Nick to make her secure when she thought that Phyllis is insecure because Nick’s cheating.

  91. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    the only characters she’s developed this year are Billy Chloe and Kay!

    Uh, yeah, because Nikki Newman didn’t fall off the wagon, claw her way back to sobriety and find a new love this year.

    Victor didn’t go into the depths of his soul, think he would never love again, only to be given another chance at love with one of the greatest loves of his life.

    Ashley didn’t fly to Paris to save the man of her dreams, then later return to reclaim control of her father’s company.

    Gloria didn’t finally pay for her crimes and come to realize just what she had done to everyone she came in contact with.

    Sharon didn’t slowly start to  come undone in the wake of running into Nick in Paris.

    Etc. etc.

  92. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    I have a lot of people I admire, but I also have no problem criticizing them.
    And I criticize MAB, all the time. In fact daily, about something or other, but I would take all the characters envisioning chipmunks over LML so much as being allowed to set foot on the Y&R set ever again.

  93. Profile photo of Jillian Bowe
    Jillian Bowe

    Kay has always been a core character on the show so what do I need to tell Maria?She is one of the reasons why I watch Y&R now and when I started to as a child. Billy is part of a core family and he was part of the Glo by Jabot kids so again him being on the screen is crucial and Chloe is part of that arena also.  Monamis I am trying to understand what your saying but its obvious your not seeing where we come from also. We take EVERYONE to task about the shows and we do with Maria and co also but she’s also writing and showing some of the things we’re interested in seeing. LML never did so I can’t back that horse. The only thing I loved about LML was the fact that she gave Nikki a backbone instead of being a sniveling society dame at the feet of Victor.

  94. Profile photo of monamis


    Go back and read any post of mine, and you will see that I have defended your non-bias. I have always qualified, that this is more your colleagues than you. But they are your colleagues, I understand if this offends you too.

    I think DC in general can be very biased towards MAB, and not give her accountability, and I have said time and time again you were the lone voice of reason, the first to criticize the writing of the Winters, Cane, the first to say CK wasn’t a hair model, although its clear you have beef with her.

    I would not classify myself as an LML fan, but I watched the show religiously in 2007 and early 08, and fell off, after the Sabrina/Victor Nikki/David crap started taking over. LML in my opinion is a convenient means to take a look at the biases you have. If LML is the boogeyman responsible for how the soap is doing almost two years after leaving, I think there is a bias there.

    I’ve said it gingerly in the past, but today I got krunk because in the past week, I’ve asked you to explain the difference in ratings, and I don’t think you have. I don’t think it would be acceptable to anyone who needs to use this insight to make a decision, which is the litmus test I use, so I’m doing my own research.

    I believe in criticizing characters, and the only people I criticize are writers. There are plenty of fan boards (not Lane related) that take serious issue with MAB’s writing, which I have discussed before including broken story arcs, sketchy writing, lack of continuity and selective development in an ensemble cast.

    If you say she’s a sister of Bronte, or Shakespeare, fine, but understand, it’s a lone voice on this board, that will feel comfortable saying anything against MAB, so while these people may not come to your board, they exist, and they’re real, and they vote with their remotes, just as much as you or I do.

  95. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    After what LML did to Y&R she shouldn’t be allowed to write thank you notes when someone sends her a birthday gift! HACK, HACK, HACK, SOAP SLAYING HACK! She fired Eileen Davidson because she didn’t LIKE her. REPLACED Bill Bell’s VETERAN writers with her FRIENDS! My God in heaven, "commercially and criticially successful"? She threw out the soap’s story bible onto a pile of burning fur coats. She yanked the diamonds out of Melody Scott’s ears and picked up a water bucket and SPLASHED it on the Newman fire place. She thought making a randy pool boy who married up fight the Nazis was a GOOD IDEA. Jesus take the wheel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  96. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    MAB is praised because she restored the Abbotts, Reignited Kay vs. Jill, Nikki/Victor/Ashley, Billy and Mac, etc. She gave us our show back. I can understand why that means nothing to a newer viewer, but it has been a daily hallmark to this soap’s long time, disgruntled viewers. Those of us, LML didn’t manage to drive off. No one ever said it was perfect, but then Bill Bell himself wasn’t perfect. All I know is I can’t wait to watch Y&R now every day. I haven’t been able to say that since before Bill Bell developed Alzheimers, so not only is MAB cleaning up after LML, but Kay Alden, Jack Smith and the rest of those who came after Bill.

  97. Profile photo of Jillian Bowe
    Jillian Bowe

    Now some of you accuse me of being bias to Maria but again Monamis I call her to the carpet when she’s done wrong. Starting with The Winters dumpling gang along with Noah and Eden, Jack’s lack of kids and the chipmunk capers. It just seems as though you think some of DC have a bias towards MAB because we’re not into the Lane thing. Hell I’ll admit that I tried to give it a chance but just couldn’t because they are boring to put it mildly.I’m all for helping the environment but when LML put her tree hugging beliefs in the forefront of the show she lost me. Soaps are all about decadents and LML dismantled that by putting in what she thought viewers should learn about having a greener earth. Then she started to play politics by hiring and firing folks because she didn’t like this one or owed someone a favor and decided to fire that one.

  98. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    Here’s another point, the general consensus among LML fans is that she did better for her beloved Lane. Well, guess what? Your couple is still on the show, two or three days a week. I LOST John and Ashley Abbott because of that hack. Characters I had known and loved my entire life. YOu think you’re rabid about your precious Lane, imagine how viewers who actually grew up on the Abbotts felt seeing that family puked on by that hack! Imagine how we felt seeing GLoria desecrate Abbott mansion. Soaps are about family and tradition, and LML dishonored that.

  99. Profile photo of monamis

    So DC…

    We don’t want new viewers joining soaps, we only want long time viewers watching? If you don’t know the history, than no need to apply?

    If I’m honest, I think the soap needed both LML’s innovative/creative perspective and MAB’s sense of history to reign in the creative. I don’t think what MAB is doing is creative, but I understand the appeal for people who get caught up in history and pointing out inconsistencies in character.

    If I couldn’t suspend disbelief, I couldn’t enjoy smallville, or Wicked or other classic story retellings. When do soaps get to take creative license?

    The new generation of tv watchers may not have the patience for stories that move so slow. they have grown accustomed to Picture in picture, 500 channels and you-tube and I guess if what you are saying is let us enjoy our soaps for these next 5 years, before they go away, I just hope we don’t limit ourselves to the death of this genre.

    I think soaps can have relevance if they adapt. Maybe people will have more flexibility to follow the storylines they enjoy more, without the static of storylines they don’t. The Youtube generation watches Y&R selectively and not in its entirety the way you might. It’s more than just fastforwarding, they have no idea what is going on with 2/3rds of the soap, if it doesn’t involve characters or storylines they are interested in.

    Stories in the future may be tighter, faster moving, with shorter story arcs. Whatever the future holds it has to be organic, and not just an effort to recreate or regurgitate the past so that viewers can say, I remember this or that.

  100. Profile photo of Caitlin

    I don’t think LML or MAB have offered much for female viewers of the Young and the Restless. There was a time when daytime offered adventure, romance, intrigue, and genuine love.

    Now it’s horrendously written triangles and quads with continuous WTD’s, lack of character development, and poor storytelling with pacing dependent upon sweeps periods, and a lack of organic pairings.

    I don’t see any female or male character offering much of anything at Y&R for viewers.

    Phyllis-Scheming to hang on the husband who cheated on her with his ex-wife from his first marriage in which she was his pregnant mistress. The term “If he cheats with you, then he’ll cheat on you” ring a bell for Big Red?

    Sharon-Committing adultery with married ex-husband on the floor of current husband’s family home. No independence, identity, or career.

    Each blames the “other” woman without taking the the consistent cheater Nicholas Newman to task.

    There is nothing root-worthy or redeemable with these two women at all. This “triangle” has really damaged both of these characters, and demolished Nick.

    Chloe-Will do anything to have Billy. Put up with his womanizing, lack of committment, etc. Lowered herself to offer an open marriage just to have a piece of him. I can just imagine Phyllis 2.0 when Bac and Shilly come full force.

    Chloe is the embodiement of everything women don’t aspire to be: A gold-digging, insecure, self-absorbed, narcisstic, manipulative, and bottom-feeding loser desperate for a man who most definitely “Just isn’t that into her”.

    Lily-Doormat. What woman would welcome back a man who constantly chose another woman and her child over her? Gave said woman her engagement ring and house? Even when it was determined that wasn’t his biological child he still put that child over her. It’s 2009. You can be with the woman you love, and raise your child from someone else without having to marry your scheming baby’s mama. Tom Brady anyone? What exactly is Lily’s career again?

    Jill-Bitter harpy with no character development or dimensions.







    Nikki-The ultimate doormat.

    I didn’t mention Kay because the writing for her hasn’t been horrendous.

    How about a fresh set of writers with dynamic and unique storylines to enrich daytime? How about writing women to be strong, independent, focused on their careers, love, and themselves not sacrificing their dignity and integrity for men?

  101. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    Monamis of course newer viewers are essential, but the way to get them is to anchor them with vets from the past, who are also involved in well written tales. You don’t hand over the show to newer couples at the expense of the vets. Doing so is what has mortally wounded daytime.

  102. Profile photo of Jillian Bowe
    Jillian Bowe

    Monamis nobody is saying that you can’t be innovative. Ron Carlivarti on OLTL imo is but he also keeps history in tact. LML didn’t do that. We’re suppose to believe that a family like the Abbotts were to have one pulled over on them by GLORIA who causes them to lose the company? That’s not innovative that’s stupidity. I have nothing wrong with creating an innovative way to learn about the environment and to have a greener earth but to have people of GC one day just up and go green with no warning or anything? Sorry can’t buy it. If she had incorportated some things on slowly instead of thrusting it down our throats and still use history maybe she would’ve still been employed.. Nah can’t say that with a straight face! *LOL*

  103. Profile photo of monamis

    Jamey if you believed that about attracting new viewers, I don’t understand why you pimp Chloe and Billy so hard. They are a new couple who has hijacked this show for the last 3 months. As a long time soap fan, I’m sure you know the summers tend to feature younger couples when kids are out of school. I’m open to surprises, but I doubt a lot of high schoolers will relate to some of these veteran characters the way they are being written now.

    Some people don’t relate to a patriarch TGVN who never loses, at least his epilepsy storyline had him show some vulnerability. Everyone loves a comeback story. Jack is no match for Victor at this point. He’s just an annoyance.

    I hate the women in MABs soap, weak azz women, who cower to their men, I don’t recognize them and I don’t like them.

    Why is a PhD chemist, being played by Victor Newman, after all these years can’t Ashley catch a clue about him?

    Phyllis and Chloe fighting for men who can’t commit, or don’t even love them or want them?

    Lily’s primary role is to bump uglies between two brothers?

    Sharon’s breakdown included yet another WTD storyline that will probably go on for infinity.

    Nikki, still pines for a man who treats her like crap?

    Thank god for Kay and Murphy, they are cute, but i wouldn’t call it a supercouple love story.

    Jill can’t find a man, as beautiful and feisty and rich as she is?

    When I start seeing a female head writer write women who I can respect and identify with, I’ll sign on for that wholeheartedly.

  104. Profile photo of Smitty

    I am in the demo that the executives and advertisers want. I am 25 and the people I want to see on my screen are the VETS. The people I grew up watching. Nikki, Katherine, Jack, Ashley, Victoria, Traci, Jill, Lauren, Michael, Sharon, Nick, Phyliss, Neil, Olivia, Nina…these are the people i want to see. I like the new characters especially when they are core characters (Cane, Colleen, Kevin, Mac). I don’t want to say Lane shoved down my throat 5 days a week. They are no Nick and Sharon.

  105. Profile photo of Caitlin

    Am I missing something here? Why did this become about Lily and Cane?

    They may be a popular pairing with a large fanbase, but this was and has always been a superficial pairing.

    LML wrote them very shallow and superficial. The pairing was poorly developed and lacked true angst.

    I’ve been watching soaps for over two decades…

    Long enough to know when a pairing is about to be ended for good. They have all the signs there.

    I wish that fanbase well because they won’t be having a happy farewell with Lily and Cane under MAB if her writing for them the last year is any indication.

    Jamey-I don’t find Lily and Cane to be a threat to any character or pairing on Y&R. They’re hardly on, and if they are it’s only with Chloe and Billy who are headed for a triangle with Mac and drama with Sharon. I also don’t buy that fanbase has any power or influence otherwise they would have had better writing and more screentime.

  106. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    Chloe and Billy have most assuredly not hijacked the show. Jack, Billy, Ashley and Esther are all carefully integrated into their storyline. That’s how good soaps have always worked. Also, they are both legacy characters. Lily is also a legacy character, but Cane is a history re-write that LML felt should be the male lead of Y&R. Phyllis has always fought for men. She drugged Danny and pretended to have sex with him to pass of Danny as his. This is part of her identity, her back story. This is the Phyllis that made Michelle a star. The crazy Phyllis who ran over Paul. Sharon’s mental state is also tied to history. This isn’t her first breakdown. She also came undone when she had her affair with Diego and later with Cameron. Characters like Chloe are as classic as soaps. Lisa Hughes on ATWT, Erica Kane on AMC, Rachel Davis on AW were all bad girls who lied, connived and schemed to get their man. This is a soap opera staple than fans generally eat up. There’s a reason the vixens are always remembered so much longer than the heroine. I don’t see AMC fans talking about Tara. It’s all about Erica. Ashley’s blinders about Victor go back 20 years, it’s called history. Ashley is a wildly competent, capable woman, until it comes to Victor. He’s her Achilles Heel. Again, this is history and it honors the fans. For the last 10 years, this industry has forgotten about long term fans in their desperate bid for new viewers. This is why people are excited about MAB.

  107. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    Why did this become about Lily and Cane?
    That is precisely what I wonder! I try my best not to discuss that little girl anymore, but each and every post turns into a "MAB isn’t so great, she doesn’t do good with Lane", but it’s the MAB fans who are drinking koolaid…To even attempt to negate all of the strategic steps, longterm fan or not, that MAB has taken to restore a soap, following Marland’s rules, Agnes’s rules, and Bill’s rules all at once, all because of one couple is crazy to me. I have been calling MAB out about not fixing the Winters storyline as quickly as she did the others from jump, but she is still the best show runner in daytime, Lane or no Lane.

  108. Profile photo of Jillian Bowe
    Jillian Bowe

    Monamis Victor has lost in the past, I mean Adam DID get the best of him before the plan went ape shit. Lorie Brooks did get the best of Victor when she left him at the altar. Nick sold Victor out to the feds was no walk in the park also. Jack and Brad teaming up and taking over Newman wasn’t a joke either. Victor has gotten his in the past. To believe that VICTOR would be friends with JACK after Jack left him to die when he had a heart attack? That’s crazy. Part of the history of Bill Bell’s was that Ashley is naive when it comes to Victor so that’s with history. The same with Phyllis, she’s always been crazy as a fox and fights tooth and nail for these men. Look at Danny and Jack for example. Nikki’s always pined for Victor so that’s par for the course. Blame LML for Jill being without a man. She penned it that Jill was batshit crazy for Ji-Min and after he died she will never love another. MAB fixed that part. I do agree that LML writing Nikki with backbone was great and wish that would still take place.

    Smitty ICAM, I am in the demo soaps are targeting along with the majority of the DC crew and we’re not into that mess either with Lane. Shoving newbies and younger characters down our throats isn’t the way, introducing them slowly like MAB and other writers is the way you can attract a fanbase.

  109. Profile photo of Jillian Bowe
    Jillian Bowe

    AMEN! Oh and as for Lily, under the GREAT Lynn Marie, she bumped two friends so what’s so bad about 2 brothers? Hell Maria’s giving that girl SOME history since her mama Dru did 2 bros. also!

  110. Profile photo of Smitty

    I don’t know how this became about Lily and Cane but I won’t hold my tongue on that duo. Now I was looking at some old clips from CK’s first reign as Lily and I thought what happened to that Lily. I loved her teenage portrayal of Lily. Now when she came back and took over for Davetta Sherwood the character has been written poorly. I don’t know any 21 year old that nags like she does. It is so uncharacteristic of a girl that is the daughter of Malcom and Dru and Neil. Now that I think of it LML was writing Lily when CK came back and I blame her for the destruction of another character that has so much potential.

    Now Cane I was against him from the start due to the rewrite. I wasn’t the biggest fan of it and didn’t understand the purpose but I have grown to accept him. I like the rivalry he has with Billy. It’s very organic and I understand the rivalry.

    Now that “Lane” business was rushed the first time around. They were friends one day. Then they shared a couple sex scenes because they had left there spouses. Lily was pregnant the next month, then engaged and lost the baby the next month. It was rushed and forced in my opinion. Not to mention a 40 year old with a 21 year old. YUCK YUCK YUCK! I know it happens all the time but this one just isn’t working. Cane needs to be mixing it up with Sharon, Phlyss, Nina, Victoria, and that age group. Lily needs to be with Devon, Colleen, Daniel age group.

    Ok I am done ranting.

  111. Profile photo of jgirlluvlane

    Congratulation Tom C. I love the eppy…I am so glad the custody drama is OVER chop it up to one of MAB failure and the kevin chipmunk story is as ridiculous as they come failure #2 this year so far..I hate the fact that phyllis is begging SPINELESS nick to stay with her after he slept with sharon twice and nicki who finally had a backbone and had a couple of love scene with paul is now a lunatic…Daniel is reduce to NOTHING but a whinny and you never see Paul who is suppose to be a VET..and victor who can be a great great grandfather is now going to father a baby..and since ashley been back she has only been victor incubator..and Jack is like a LAPDOG behind sharon begging her to take him back and is always A LOSER to victor.. and the topper the POC has move from GC only show up to VISIT once in a while these are MAB stories.. VET is very important to a show not knocking but i will not buy into the fact that EVERYONE wants to see them and without them a show wont survive ex..marlena/john and the many vets that have left daytime we cant always live in the past we eventually have to move to the future therefore the NEXT GENERATION of Vets…daytime need balanced of old and new…and a forum like this while you may have your favorite IT IS INCUMBENT upon you to make sure that the writers/creators and those who truly love this genre are truly doing justice to what they produce. RATINGS MATTERS for alot of reasons so to say it does is irresponsible, if it didnt why are GL been cancelled and others are on the verge of cancelling? while bloggers and other so-called voice of soap GUSHES ABOUT the dream team and other crap that is on daytime the result are in the hands of Remote of the view who speaks everyday and judges the true measure of what they see on their tv.

  112. Profile photo of ad-girl

    Is it possible to agree that MAB overall is a better writer than LML but LML wrote Cane and Lane better? It doesn’t take anything away from MAB to say that there were a few — very few — things LML did better. LML did create Cane so she was obviously invested him. MAB has inherited this new Australian Phillip and while she might admire DG, it must also be problematic for her. DG & JW are so good together, I don’t want them to undo the relationship. On the other hand, the entire story of Kay giving away Jill’s child really veers into silliness.

    I don’t want Nikki to be a feminist ballbuster like she was under LML when she ran for senate. Victor pulled her off a pole! Nikki achieved her success on life while on her back. If anyone should be running for senate, it should be someone like Jill or Ashley.

  113. Profile photo of siomonstuart2003

    Fans aren’t watching soaps live anymore because they can watch it online, on Soapnet, and DVR it, and the economy is in the tank and people are worrying about they homes and jobs, not watching soaps.

    I do feel that MAB is doing a great job with the show with Hogan S and now Tom Caseillo, congrats Tom. I think that she is exploring Kevin’s background a bit because they didn’t explain what was wrong with Kevin, they sort of whitewash it and MAB is explaining it to us to finish the s/l to move the character into a new and fresh direction.

    I also glad that they are moving the Winters s/l along because it has been backburner and needs to hurry it up and get rid of Tyra and Ana. They are not needed. The Phick s/l was getting stale and it needed a new start too and Nick was not over Sharon one bit. But Sharon isn’t the innocent victim in it also and Phyllis is telling Nick about it and he is not listening. This is what the Liz/Jason/Sam triangle should of been written like, even though you like both pairings.

    The Murphy and Kay romance is great because it shows a older couple and actors that is not the youth demo. And the undoing of Kay and Jill paternity is a way to revive the feud and to stop making Jill a harpy shrew.

    The show is doing great and the writers is not treating the fans like they are idiots.

  114. Profile photo of monamis

    I think this thread is about a lot more than Lily and Cane. I think they are the smallest part of it.
    LOL ad girl. Victor pulled her off a pole, so she can’t do anything else. Oh well. I don’t want feminine ball busters, but i do want women who stand up for themselves a little.

    I’m taking some time to read up on these characters. Phyllis is my favorite character. The Phyllis I started watching was smart, cunning, naughty, but not desperate. I guess we can’t see her grow.

    From the history i have brushed up on, I see that Chloe is Nina 2.0, only instead of Phillip IV she gets the abbott heir. If we are true to form with the recycling of Bell plots, Chloe will shoot Billy, and start dating JT.

    I’m catching up and I’ll be back…

  115. Profile photo of Jorpa

    All I’m going to say here is that if MAB brings John Abbot back from the dead (and it can happen, this is a soap opera you know), I will go to California and kiss her feet. And she better hurry up cos I’ll be there in July. LOL I don’t care how she does it as long as it happens. I will forever resent LML for killing him off.

  116. Profile photo of jgirlluvlane

    Monamis I love all your posts, you are intelligent and you don’t just talk for talking sake…I am just showing my support for you NOT THAT YOU NEED IT you definitely can handle your stuff. I

  117. Profile photo of bunting

    I agree. I thought this thread was interesting but it shouldn’t just be about Lily and Cane, a couple frankly I don’t care for, but they have their fans and deserve some story.

    While I agree MAB is better than LML, my problem is that I think the show is so dark and so many relationships are about cheating. I have been watching soaps since the 80s and a big part of that draw is romance, love stories and family drama. Where is the love on this show. It almost feel like Katherine and Murphy, a couple of 80 year olds, are the salve for those of us who enjoy a good love story.

    So many couples are cheating and betraying their significant others and while soaps have always had cheating, the show is going overboard right now. And if you are faithful forget about it because you are nonexistant to this writing team.

    I am a veteran watcher of the show and watched the show on and off since the mid 80s and faithfully since 96 and some of us vets love the Fisher-Baldwins (minus Gloria and Jeff) and are frankly tired of them getting treated as if they were LML’s favorites and are somehow linked to her problematic tenure when it was Gloria and the quad of Phyllis, Sharon, Nick and Jack as well as Brad and Victoria and the dreaded reliquary that ate her show. Victor and Nikki also recieved planty of airtime under LML.

    As a Lauren and Michael fan I have to laugh at them being named as LML favorites because LML gave them little story and used them as merely props although they did get a little romance. Michael is treated the same way under MAB: a prop while Lauren is practically nonexistant which saddens this Lauren Fenmore fan. Kevin and Jana didn’t have much story either. LML loved writing for Gloria but she is not the whole family.

    MAB has her favorites and that is the core families of Chancellors, Abbotts, and Newmans. That’s fine, but what about the fans of the Winters, Baldwins(without Gloria0? What about vets like Tracey Bregman and Doug Davidson? Do they deserve to be treated like glorified dayplayers for MAB. Tracey has received two emmy nominations in the last four years and as her reward she gets written out for six weeks and is lucky to be seen for three or four minutes to be a damn talk to and push Maria’s favorites once or twice a week when she is allowed on set. She was a major player in the wonderfully written first Kevin story under jack Smith. Now I wonder if Lauren even remembers she is Kevin’s family and the woman who was the first person who believed in him. Christian Le Blanc won the lead acting emmy two of the past four years, but what does he get under Maria Bell? He is nothing more than a prop to his family, Phyllis and clients. I don’t mind Michael as superlawyer but how about a story (a B story about his life with Lauren and son). Instead of watching the same arguments between Phyllis and Nick or Sharon and Jack day after day how about exploring some issues in Michael and Lauren’s marriage?

    I keep waiting for the day when Lauren is the next one to be found “under the ice” and the lamenting that will go on because of the loss of a good actress like Tracey Bregman. Or maybe it will be Doug Davidson out the door next or how about a good young actress like Emily O’Brien while we sit and are forced to watch a character like Tyra and a quality actress like Nia Peeples is sacrificed when no effort was made writing for the Winters.

    MAB deserved kudos for writing good story for some characters but she has also ignored other characters that constantly seem to be backburned.

  118. Profile photo of Melvins mom
    Melvins mom

    Wow…I decided to check back on the debate/discussion and couldn’t believe how long it went on. While I am very much a fan of MAB and am thrilled with what she has done with the show, I will acknowledge that I have seen a whole lot of Billy and Chloe lately. While that’s okay for me because I do like them, I can see how it would be upsetting for fans of Lane.
    I have some critiques of what MAB has done lately (the possible Amber/Kevin pairing irritates me, I shudder at a WTD story for Sharon, and don’t get me started on the much discussed chipmunk), but overall, I am seeing characters that I grew up watching on my screen everyday, and with the exception of poor Paul Williams, all seem to be getting equal screen time.
    All right, on to bed.

  119. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    Again, I never said "ratings don’t matter". What I said, was the fact that Lynn Marie Hack-tham’s numbers were better than Y&R under MAB was a result of the consistent erosion for daytime viewership, which is down about 2 to 3 ratings point on average a year since the end of the 90’s. What I also said was that after LML’s disastrous first season, the show lost a million viewers, which was an enormous decline for the soap. Vets are paramount, whether you guys like it or not, and no the show won’t survive without them. I am sorry, but Monamis has admitted she has only followed this soap opera for a few years. I have followed them all for decades and the quickest way to kill a soap is to start firing the vets and telling brazen new stories. It’s what happened at Another World. It’s what happened at Guiding Light and it was happening at Y&R under LML. As for Paul not being seen, Doug Davidson is still on this show because Don Diamont was picked to cut instead of him, so all things considered, he should be grateful. Not everyone can be on the front burner, but MAB has focused on the veteran characters, the long term fans who have kept this show at the top of the Nielsens for 20 years have wanted to see, Victor, Nikki, Ashley, Jack, Kay and Jill. She has also reignited Nick’s love affair with Sharon, which, sorry Phick fans, was a monster hit long before LML had Nick bang Phyllis in a barn. For the next generation, she is building stories featuring Billy, Chloe, Cane and Lily, all legacy characters, tied to the vets. Which is how good soaps have done for years. Daniel has huge story coming up in the summer. Soaps have always rotated the burner. LML certainly didn’t. Judith Chapman was never on the backburner when LML ran the show. Neither was Michelle Stafford, whom I like as an actress, but I could have been spared seeing her wreck the character of Sheila Carter. As for Jill Abbott, the one you see now, is the ones the fans know and love. That "romance" LML gave her with Ji Minh was a farce. Jill Foster Abbott never would have been so hurt over some con man. And as for Phyllis ‘never being this crazy’, I’m sorry, I would love to debate these things all day, but you really need to know what you’re talking about. Phyllis’ origin story saw her premiering as an obsessed fan of Danny Romalotti, who drugged him and passed the child she was carrying off as his. She killed her friend to keep her secret and ran over Paul in an unmarked car when he started to catch on to her. The character was so popular Michelle broke out as a star and even booked the lead in an Aaron Spelling primetime show. Of course MAB would want to restore that version of Phyllis. This entire thread is a benchmark for what arrogant producers like LML do to shows. They come in and totally disregard the viewers who have kept the lights turned on, in some misguided attempt to lure in mythological new viewers, not bothering to pay attention to how it has worked successfully in the past, i.e. by giving long term fans the stories they want, then those fans who their children and grandchildren. No, they decide to fire beloved vets, or write them so far out of character long term viewers don’t even recognize them. Meanwhile they began re-writing history left and right, i.e. Phillip III wasn’t Phillip III, Brad wasn’t just a pool boy who made good. Phyllis is Sheila and Sheila is Phyllis and Sheila is Zapato, etc. etc., causing long term fans to cry foul. Have you ever thought that maybe you’re ‘lonely on this board" because most Y&R fans simply don’t agree with you? I’m going out on a limb, but I suspect that to be the case. Phick fans and Lane fans are ticked off at MAB, but sorry, those fanbases do no comprise the majority of the people who have watched this show for 35-odd years, and I would rather have a writing team that may not totally satisfy a few fanbases, than one who decimates the entire soap opera, ripping each and every core family to shreds.

  120. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    Bunting, I have said over and over again I want MAB to fix the Winters.I am gonna be honest, I am not as concerned about the Fisher-Baldwins. My God in heaven if any family DESERVES some time on the back burner it’s them! They ate the show alive. I would love, love, love for Lauren to get more story, but Tracey Bregman is on recurring, by her own choice, not the shows. That is likely a factor. Soaps don’t generally like to commit to big stories for people who could walk at any minute. I love Michael and Kevin, but Gloria, Jeffrey, Jana and Eden could all be blown up at Clearasil Springs tomorrow for all I care. I am so glad we have a writer, who as you say, picks the Chancellors, Newmans and Abbotts as her favorite. Those families SHOULD be the favorites. I swear to God, I feel as if I am in some opposite soap message board. Of course, Katherine Chancellor and Jill Abbott should be front and center, their feud has driven story for over three decades! MAB is giving their fans what we have been crying for years, and no it wasn’t LML who made them mother and daughter, it was Kay Alden, but it was LML who further ruined their story,with another re-write, that Phillip III, the boy we all knew and loved, wasn’t Jill’s son. I was okay with that at first, but as it went on, it was just another smelly, LML turkey.  Of course the Abbott’s should be favored. After Bill Bell wrote out the Brooks sisters, the Abbotts became his signature family, and Nikki/Victor/Ashley is one of the most popular love triangles in the history of daytime. MAB gets icon status. She isn’t concerned with simply pleasing one or two rabid fanbases. She is doing what it takes to lure back disgruntled fans who have already proven their longterm committment to the show. Fans who won’t leave when Hunk A isn’t paired with Pre-pubescent Teen B. Fans who have watched for generations, at their mothers knees, and who will pass it on to their children, Will she be successful in the end? Who knows, but at least she is going back to the formula that has worked in daytime for 70 odd years. LML should write some documentary about art or blood diamonds, since that’s obviously what her world view is focused on. Long term Y&R fans didn’t give two good kitties about any of that madness, and we tuned out in droves.

  121. Profile photo of monamis

    Jamey, you certainly know how to get a party started! I’m glad to see you care about soaps as much as many of us do. Love that!

    We couldn’t be on more opposite sides, in terms of the stories we enjoy, but I see the veteran soap viewers have won the day. Still not sure what to do with this because I would be lying if I said I didn’t feel discounted as a relatively new viewer. But as I said, I will do my research and see if I care about these veteran characters any better.

    I’m going to try to find a non-provocative way to share the ratings analysis the ad agency does for me, but I think we should come full circle with me going back to my original post which basically said that I loved the column you wrote in this thread and agree with you for the most part.

    Apologies to Tom Casiello, his first show deserved the attention instead of the faction wars here. Congratulations Tom, looking forward to seeing more great stuff from you. In one show you’ve made Winter’s fans hopeful and you pretty much turned the ship! And for whatever role MAB played in allowing you to do that, I thank her too!

    Happy Hump day everybody!

  122. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    Oh it’s all good Monamis. This has given me reason to sympathize with all the long term GH watchers I used to get into it with over at SOAPnet. Since I started watching in the 90’s, I didn’t get the appeal of Robert and Anna, and was happy to see Maurice and Tamara on everyday! LOL I was often cyber flogged.

  123. Profile photo of cornelison

    I used to call The Winters the “black storyline” because I never liked it – especially Dru. Right now I’m rarely watching the soap for the whole hour. I’ll cook supper or use my computer. Boardroom espionage should be more original. STOP allowing your sister soap, B&B, from adopting the same plots both soaps have used since the 1990’s!!! I’m tired of dual kidney donations!! Amber & Michael Baldwin have yet to reflect on their kidney donations on opposing soaps. That’s irony we can do without.

  124. Profile photo of cornelison

    I used to call The Winters the “black storyline” because I never liked it – especially Dru. Right now I’m rarely watching the soap for the whole hour. I’ll cook supper or use my computer. Boardroom espionage should be more original. STOP allowing your sister soap, B&B, from adopting the same plots both soaps have used since the 1990’s!!! I’m tired of dual kidney donations!! Amber & Michael Baldwin have yet to reflect on their kidney donations on opposing soaps. That’s irony we can do without.

  125. Profile photo of Pure_Diva

    I can’t fault much that Jamey wrote in the article this time. I agree with most. Tom Casiello’s first day was FABULOUS– especially the Neil/Karen scenes in the courtroom and at home.

    I’d like to chime in on the LML tenure – the show SUCKED under LML. I hated every single thing about it, but the only thing that kept me watching was Cane & Lily. The breakdown writers for their relationship were fantastic. But every other storyline put me to sleep faster than 2 Ambiens. The Gloria Show made me an ex-viewer. It was Cane himself who brought me back since I just happened to be home sick watching on the very first day he walked into Indigo and went behind that bar wearing those form-fitting jeans, that black shirt and that thousand watt smile, but I digress.

    As for Daniel Goddard’s acting choice: I think he was grinning because that stupid-ass storyline was over. Honestly, he usually makes GREAT acting choices, but I don’t think he could help himself this time. He was prolly grinning every since he read the script.

    MAB, Hogan & Paul being a dream team?? I dunno… I watched GL while Paul was there and I watched ATWT while Hogan was there. I wouldn’t exactly call them a dream team… I don’t mind MAB copying Bill Bell’s stories, but I hope they leave the other crap in File 13.

  126. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    Bunting, I am forever talking about wanting more story for Tracey. Have said it so many times on the podcast, I am blue in the face, but it’s not the same time period as when Jack Smith was writing. Because of the economy, all the soaps are being told to focus on contract players who have guarantees first. Of course, many a recurring player in the past has received big story, but I seriously doubt we will ever see that again as daytime continues to shrink. I bet if Tracey went on contract she’d get a bigger story. As for Christian. I love Michael, but I am more than okay to see him set a few out on the bench. He and Judith were on every day under LML and were written as series leads, which those characters never should have been. Not when the Abbotts were being written off and the Winters destroyed. Christian needed some time on the backburner in my opinion. That sux for Tracey, since she is a core character, but there is nothing wrong with Christian not being front and center. Heck, even under MAB his family keeps expanding! He got a father, a sister, etc. I think TPtb are definitely still invested in the Fisher Baldwins. Personally I would get rid of all of them except Michael, Lauren and Kevin. It sucks that Brad Carlton had to go—even though it has led to powerful story—when Gloria, Jeffrey, Jana and Eden, characters most fans could probably give two flips about, are still around to eat up airtime.

  127. Profile photo of Smitty

    Jamey here’s a question for you…

    Do you like Lauren and Michael together? I personally haven’t really liked them together. Well let me rephrase in the beginning I liked them together but I thought for sure they should have had Lauren leave him after all that mess with his family especially Gloria. I hated when they would have Lauren ridiculing Jack about what he was doing to Gloria when she knew about the face cream stuff. To me it seems like Lauren would have been through with Michael and his family after the list of schemes they have put her through.

    Oh yeah and I have to vouch for Jamey on the podcast he has mentioned a couple times that he wants Tracey Bregman to have a story. I think I remember you saying something during the Christmas episode you all recorded last year.

  128. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    I don’t hate Lauren and Michael as a couple, but I think Lauren was thoroughly declawed to make it happen. Lauren Fenmore was once the sexiest bad girl in daytime, now she’s mother hen to an ever-growing den of sociopaths.

  129. Profile photo of Jamey Giddens
    Jamey Giddens

    Hey Monamis,

    I saw that earlier and actually tried to blog it, but my PC at work was acting a fool! LOL No, actually from what I read, we both were right, and wrong about certaint things. I was blaming LML for the million viewers lost, and it was a combination of the end of her run, the strike, and MAB’s disastrous collaboration with Josh Griffith, who was allegedly re-writing her scripts, in violation of the Writers Guild. The Writers Strike hit all the soaps hard, and to have the powers that be at odds, while trying to—in my opinion—clean up the damage behind LML, it was a really schizo time for viewers. I dont think Sabrina was the straw that broke the viewers back though. I know you are a fan of LML, but I think so many people were fed up by her getting rid of John and Ashley Abbott, tossing Dru off a cliff—after having her act like a maniac for months, and wrecking one of the best villains in daytime, Sheila Carter, that they just tuned out. Maria struggled a lot at first, and I said so. When others were praising her from day one, I said on the podcast over and over that I didn’t see much different about the show early on, but once she brought in one of the most successful show runners ever, Paul Rauch and the best soap scribe in the past decade, Hogan Sheffer, things began to take shape. I totally respect that you liked LML, so it isn’t about winning or losing, it’s about hopefully all the fans getting a soap that is satisfying. Thanks for the spirited debate.

  130. Profile photo of monamis

    Jamey that was very generous! It’s nice to know we can have “spirited debates”, and still maintain the civility to rejoin the discourse.

    I am still reconciling my ambivalence, but since you’ve inspired me to think a little differently on this, and my cyber buddies gave me a platform, I thought the following was a fitting epilogue to the discussion.

    I hope you get a chance to read it, and as always, I continue to admire your work!

  131. Profile photo of Nathang1983

    Yeah, it looks like the Chipmunk storyline ended today (knock on wood). Amber scared it away. :) I for one am hoping they get rid of Jana and put Amber and Kevin together. I gotta agree about Days too. The storylines on there are either awful or the decent ones (like the whole Nicole vs. the world thing) have been drug out for so long I want to scream. Not to mention the Chloe slept with Daniel crap. Just have EJ and Lucas find out things and get it over with! :)

  132. Profile photo of Nathang1983

    I can see where you’re coming from Monamis. I think MAB has made some improvements to the show, but the way she’s making it kind of kooky kind of worries me. I’d like for her to not start with the people “talking inside their head” the way Jill did yesterday. That kind of stuff is okay for Days, not Y&R. I am excited though that she’s bringing back Nina and (crossing my fingers) focusing on the veterans. That’s the way it should be. Also, a lot of what was done wrong was done by Kay Alden and John Smith. Just look at how stupid Bold and the Beautiful is now. And guess who’s the head writer! Kay Alden!

  133. Profile photo of bunting

    Sorry Jamie,

    Tracey Bregman is getting the shaft and it is just convenient that she is recurring. Other contract players are also getting the shaft. She has been with the show or B&B since the age of 19. I don’t think she is the type to be a flight risk. She was recurring under Jack Smith and had big story. They even gave her the big wedding. Tracey was written off for 6 weeks and now is off screen again when available. She has been in 18 episodes this year. Same as Doug Davidson with his big Nikki romance. Just so you know I am no newbie fan or kid. I have been a fan of Y & R a long time and I did not like LML but did enjoy Jack Smith and some of Kay Alden’s tenure. The fact is I love TEB and CLB and hate to see them, especially Tracey wasted and treated as nothing more than a glorified day player.

    I met her last summer and she was professional and very complimentary of the show, but it was clear she was disappointed in her airtime and said she would love to do more story. I know you are not a fan of Michael and Lauren, but MAB has done nothing with them since she took over. She can’t even throw them a bone once in awhile.

    By the way, I have no problem with the Chancellors, Abbotts and Newmans being favored as they are the core families. I do have a problem when favorites of mine and emmy winners are used as nothing more than props. I don’t expect to see Michael and Lauren in a major story, but they are veteran characters on this show and I think we could be spared a day or two of the same conversations between Phyllis and Nick, Sharon and Jack, Billy and Chloe and even Kay and Jill to see some development for characters like the Winters, Paul, and yes Michael and Lauren. Writers can have their favorites but that doesn’t mean they should completely ignore other characters on the canvas.

    When I say I want to see a Baldwin story, I mean I want to see a Michael and Lauren story. Let it be a B story and give them some conflict but give Michael something to do rather than clean up after his family and Phyllis, and give Lauren something to do period.

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